Hrithik vs Ranvir/Abhi…my take

S T R E E T |

84 | October 7, 2009 at 9:38 am | 5,944 views | NaachGaana Bol| Share

Hello there! If you are new here, you might want to subscribe to the RSS feed for updates on this topic.

I was going through this discussion on the other thread and some interesting debate there. Here’s my take..

Between Hrithik and Ranbir/Abhishek the latter have an advantage at many levels.. while all Hrithik has is a father who’s a successful director/producer. Hrithik’s dad had delivered a blockbuetr and a couple of hits before launching his son. Well, here’s the thing. First of all, the kind of advantage we are talking about here is same as any other profession and any another field and in any other country. If you are born in a family where your father was a top cop, you have a very good chance of becoming a cop yourself. Your father knows the best route to guide you through to become that cop and at every opportunity will lend you teh support and help you need. Or in Hrithik’s case more appriopriate would be a the example of a successful coach of a sports giving his son all the right training and all the right equipment and offering the perfect stage to help him showcase his skills. Yes Hirithi’s at an advantage than the average joe coz he will always find work in his father’s team. But then, it’s also very possible that his father will start thinking of other stars of he realizes his films are losing money one after another and sooner or later he will go bankrupt if he doesn’t stop favoring his son. But Hrithik’s done exact the opposite. And that point is very important. Rakesh Roshan was not nearly the giant that he today, prior to the arrival of Hrithik. Yes he was a successful director but he was nowhere close to the top tier. Only 2 of his last 10 films had succeeded.. and if you really stretch it maybe 3.
So yes Hrithik does have an advantage over teh average Joe.. but compared to Abhi and Ranvir? hell no. First of all, Both and Ranvir an Abhishek got their launch in bigger, better movies under directors with a much higher profile and in production houses significantly more prestigious than Hrithik. And here’s teh thing, Hrithik’s dad can only make a movie as good as his talent permits him. Yes Rakesh had delivered hits before but was never given the acclaim that a Bhansali and a JP Dutta had received. So, we have Abhishek and Ranbir being in much bugger films and way better directors than Hrithik So how does that put Hrithik at an advantage over the other two?

The second argument comes from the notion that Rakesh will keep making films for his son and rescue him whenever he’s down or he’s not getting the kind of films he’s want. Well, here again, the Abhisheks, Ranvirs, Kareenas don’t have to worry about that anyways. Because once again they are at an advantage. Rakesh can only have so many flops with Hrithik before runs out of resources, but teh likes of Abhishek will keep getting films from top directors and producers whether they have a flop or a hit. After 10 consecutive flops, Abhishek gets upcoming projects list were filled with names like Sooraj Bharjatya, Mani Ratnam and Yashraj Films. But if Hrithik has 10 consecutive flops he’d be lucky to have even a Rakesh on his hope list. So once again, the supposed advantage of having his dad make films for him irespective of failures is cancelled due tothe fact that Ranvir and Abhi will get even better directors and bigger names making films for them. And this is not coming outta my ass, we’ve witness this already, this very decade. In fact the possibility of Rakesh Roshan making a big budget affair with Hrithik after having consecutive flops is more doubtful.

Third, it’s not only the issue of access to top films, there’s this whole other side to the equation that gives Ranbir and ABhishek special advantage. The media wants to see them succeed. the trade wants to see them succeed. and worst of all, the Indian audience actually wants them to succeed. I’ve come across gazillion fans of Amitab who want Abhishek to succeed just coz he’s Amitabh’s son. On this very foum, I can pull out comments from certain Amitabh fans that mention how they wish Abhishek to succeed for Amtabh’s sake. Ofcourse, there are actual fans of Abhishek and those who like him for his acting and his movies. But a very huige portion of Abhishek fans (or more appropriate to say Abhishek sympathizers) are simply die-hard Amitabh fans.
Buit even apart from Amitabh fans, there’s this certain aspect of the Indian society’s ideology, where people are celebrated for their lineage and it “seems right” to have them see succeed to that position. Qalandar has mentioned a number of times of how this holds true beyond Bollywood and even in poolitics and business and what not. The very latest example is the rise of Rahul Gandhi in politics. Does anyone really think that he has teh ability of leading anation.. or leading the ruling party of a nation? Ofcourse it helps that the opposition is way worse, but I cann’t possibly imagine anyone paying any attention to Rahul (or Sonia) if he weren’t a Gandhi.

Hrithik first tweet: Go and watch MNIK

Hrithik ‘Bewda’ Roshan

Hrithik refuses Agneepath, Abhishek steps in!

(Believe it or not!)Hrithik in Hollywood?

Hrithik Roshan’s a smooth talker

There Are 84 Responses So Far. »

Tango 7 October 2009
09:59:39 am

Great post Street.

But I would like to know from you (as you have placed both Ranbir and Abhi on the same pedsestal)

- Which of the two is more talented?

Also, Ranbir already has an above average and another success coming up within three releases. On the other hand Abhi has dad starring in three of of his hits/successes, so who is better and more deserving of stardom?

sv 7 October 2009
10:13:28 am

Tango,how is Ranbir’s second film above average with budget of 18 crores while dil bole hadippa also has the same budget.

ACHILLES 7 October 2009
10:16:50 am

“Third, it’s not only the issue of access to top films, there’s this whole other side to the equation that gives Ranbir and ABhishek special advantage. The media wants to see them succeed. the trade wants to see them succeed. and worst of all, the Indian audience actually wants them to succeed.”

u have nailed it on the head!

Excellent post and reasoning here … i wud like to add my two cents:

Rakesh Roshan can only make a film in 3-4 years … whereas the likes of Ranbir/Abhishek has the advantage of doing multiple big projects in a single year due to connections … ranbir has KJO/YRF/Santoshi in a single year … hrithik too got big banners in his initial years … but he only got those after the KNPH created mania frenzy. Ranbir gets them in a platter without even a hit to his name.

S T R E E T 7 October 2009
10:39:02 am

Tango, I cann’t really compare them.. coz all I have seen of ranbir is bits and pieces of Saanwariya and I didn’t think much of his acting skills there.

on teh isde note.. I noticed how some poeple are saying “well Hrithik is son of a sidey actor, and so is Ranbir”. Well ranbir is not just Rishi Kapoor’s son.. but he’s seen more by people as the prince of the Kapoor family as a whole.. the heir to that dynasty and what not.

Tango 7 October 2009
10:48:52 am

SV based on its worldwide returns, as YRF are the Global distributors and all other rights go to them too.

Tango 7 October 2009
10:57:03 am

Street good point “Well ranbir is not just Rishi Kapoor’s son.. but he’s seen more by people as the prince of the Kapoor family as a whole”

Rishi Kapoor was the longest running youth icon of Indian cinemas (not justa sidey actor), from Bobby till Radha Ka Sangam (where he was as fat as a well fed cattle), so I disagree on that.

Yes, he is being percieved as the prince of the the first family of Bollywood, that is a heir of the Raj Kapoor family.

And my prediction is – He is the next superstar, within the next 5 years aur woh ek successful director bhi banega, just wait.

That is my prediction and I am not forcing it on anyone. That is how I see it.

S T R E E T 7 October 2009
01:51:15 pm

tango, how much of your prediction is based on his lineage? coz as of now, the gap between his BO pull and the biggest star is very wide (based on performances)… his latest film did barely a 15 cr opening, while, to be considered the biggest star he ought to be able to deliver a 40-45 cr opening.. Are you filling that big a gap based on his talent? his acting skills? his star appeal? his persona? or is a major quotient in that prediction is his lineage?

… and how much better of a chance does he have to be the next biggest superstar within the next 5 years, compared to some of teh other actors looking from the outside in – Shahid Kapur, Akshay Kumar, Saif Ali Khan, Hrithik Roshan, Salman Khan, etc. etc? Is he that much better than all these names I mentioned?

S T R E E T 7 October 2009
01:55:58 pm

And notice.. my views here on this matter is not a particularly baised one.. coz I am neither a fan nor do I dislike Ranbir Kapur. I might fall in love with his acting after I see WUS or whatever his other movies are. (I am after all a huge huge Rishi Kapoor fan lol) But that doesn’t change the facts. Even if I were to become his fan, I am not gonna change my stance on this topic. Starsons of such families have unparalleled advantage, and on diffferent levels – from the industry within, from the media and trade,as well as from the audiences.

ACHILLES 7 October 2009
01:58:55 pm

I dont think there is any harm in personal predictions … some believe aamir will be the best thing in BW for next 5 years … some think Shaid will get there … some say Ranbir … some are expecting 115 cr from Blue … all these games are fine.

But problem is when the media projects their predictions as reality … their predictions bring in a lot of bias into their reporting … the problem lies in there.

S T R E E T 7 October 2009
02:21:39 pm

well, Archilles the criteria from the prediction is IMO more important than the prediction itself. If I am predicting that Abhay Deol will be the next superstar, I ought to have a fairly good reason behind it. My theory could be that I expect Bollywood audiences are more interested in the philosophy of actors and what they expect certain actors to deliver them.. and in that vein the type of films Abhay Deol chooses are the future of bollywood and thus I predict he ‘ll be the bext superstar. To me this theory , this reasoning, the path to the conclusion and what decided the prediction is more interesting than the actual prediction… coz it’s through which other pieces of the puzzle can be fit in too.

Ofcourse, tango’s prediction could be based solely on intuition and gut feeling. But if his prediction is based primarily on Ranbir’s lineage, then the problem we’ve talking about becomes all the more obvious or if I may say, I’ll be proven right .

Qalandar 7 October 2009
02:23:53 pm

On a related note: LINK1; LINK2

ACHILLES 7 October 2009
02:53:54 pm

agree on your points on making prediction.

Kunal 7 October 2009
07:23:18 pm

Ach: “Rakesh Roshan can only make a film in 3-4 years … whereas the likes of Ranbir/Abhishek has the advantage of doing multiple big projects in a single year due to connections … ranbir has KJO/YRF/Santoshi in a single year … hrithik too got big banners in his initial years … but he only got those after the KNPH created mania frenzy. Ranbir gets them in a platter without even a hit to his name.”
So, you mean that HR has formally said that he will never ever work with any other production house but his father’s?

Whats stopping HR to get big banners outside filmkraft? Infact HR’s biggest hit, D3, was YRF, his most critically acclaimed movie was JA, outside FK, so whats the exact difference between HR-Rk/Abhi?

Also about, what I feel like a ridiculous point in Street’s post (no offence mate) that RR will stop taking HR is he has 10 flops, whereas other directors will keep on taking Abhi/RK even if they get 20… what?? are you kidding me? You mean to say that a there are more chances of an outsider giving chance after chance to a flop actor than father of tha particular actor? Infact, no matter how many big budgeted flops HR gets, RR will never ever stop pushing his son, thats not just RR, but I guess every father of the world.

Also, Abhi/RK, both got a good launch, but nowhere near HR. Again its a family thing. RR left no stone unturned to make his son the next superstar, nothing wrong, but its a fact. When you see Refugee, and Saawariya, both Kareena, Sonam had good enough roles, good enough screen time, but what was KNPH is not an HR show? It was a dream debut for anyone. From songs, to dances to locations to dialogues, everything in KNPH wanted to push HR, whereas Refugee and Saawariya had other actors playing substantial role as well, whether that e Rani, or Suneil Shetty (or howsoever he spells his name). I don’t mean that Saawariya and Refugee were small launch pads, but nothing as Abh-RK centric as KNPH was for HR.
Conclusion: HUGE advantage to HR over Abhi and RK

About the calibre of debut directors, I think BO wise all were at the same pedestal. JP had big Border, SLB had big Devdas (though not as big), RR had Karan Arjun. Infact BO wise none of them was a heavvy weight per se. Whereas its tough to imagine Border getting too much of critical acclaim, SLB was criticlaly acclaim though, hands down, RR again never had any critical acclaim. So in a way, all 3 were almost at the same pedestal.
Conclusion: no advantage to anyone

One point I totally agree is with lineage factor. Yes, it plays a huge role, and is playing a huge role, advantage Abhi-RK

Also, if your argument is that Abhi is still geting movies even after no hits, well, HR also kept on getting movies after his horrendous run. I might agree taht RR couldn’t pull as much strings as AB, but definitely more than Rishi Kapoor. RR kept his son in the thick when he was giving thin performances.
Conclusion: Both Abhi, HR seem to have an edge over RK.

The bigegst difference between Abhi-HR was training. When HR appeared to a trained “star”, not necessarily an actor, Abhi was looking like someone forced to come into movies at a moment’s notice, which is not a surprise, considering that his debut followed huge losses to ABCL. may be Abhi was never supposed to be an actor in the first place, may be he was just supposed to head ABCL, but its debacle forced him to make a move in BW and try to save family going into bankruptcy. Whereas, you look at HR and you see prepration gone into making a star. from his dance, to looks, to interviews, to acting, to mannerisms, everything was planned, and executed to perfection. TBH I see only 2 other actors of BW coming with similar prepration, RK, and Shahid Kapoor. But both had issues. RK picked the worst movie he ever could. A gloomy movie with, I believe one of the most over hyped directors of all time, and Shahid doesn’t have a lineage. Thouh he picked up a great movie as well, Ishk-Vishk, which did phenominal for colege crowd, but he just couldn’t follow it up with big banners, since all big banners were busy promoting HR, Abhi, and now, RK.
Conclusion: Advantage HR over Abhi for training, HR over RK for common sense, HR over SK for lineage.

I am not favoring or dissing anyone over here, just saying what I felt like.

BTW thanks for the post, Street, I always wanted to talk about this thiing, but was too lazy to make a thread

pardesi 7 October 2009
07:40:08 pm

Street: I think you have to clarify what exactly you mean when you talk of Bhansali as a huge banner for Ranbir’s debut. How many successful films has Bhansali had? You are also glossing over the fact that two star-kids (Ranbir AND Sonam) slogged as ADs on the Black team before Bhansali noticed them. How is that nepotism? It seems like hard work to crawl up the ladder to me. Did Hritik not have K3G where he replaced Abhishek, and the signing was before KNPH? So what exactly were his credentials then? And that was with the Dharma head man, not some debutant director under the banner. Similarly, with YashRaj it was not a Dhoom 2 like Dhamaka that came after a few Yashraj duds with Hritik, but a film with the not to successful Sid Anand.

Why should Ranbir’s film opening ability be doubted? WUS released small, multiplex centered, quite like CDI and TZP and it will make almost the same as those two in the opening week on a similar print count and release strategy. So what exactly are we expecting from him that is not delivered?

Neil gave the dreadful Aaa Dekhen Zara, and his JG was a flop but acclaimed (though not for Neil’s performance). Saawariya was ONLY noted for Ranbir’s acting. Yes NY was a hit, and talk of the cause has to factor in Katrina Kaif too, in addition to Neil and John. Imraan gave the hugely successful JTYJN but then the two abysmal films that followed have erased any belief in his abilities. The trajectory is downward here, and upward in the case of Ranbir.

I predict that Ranbir will be the next big thing, and no it is not because of his last name, and I was never a huge fan of Rishi either, nor of Raj Kapoor, and the less said about Randhir et al. the better. I do think the Kapoor sisters deserve credit and some of it for being girls from a family where “their” women were locked away into a vault. It was quite telling that when Kareena won Critics award for best actress, the clan (including her dad) were gathered around Ranbir for his debut award. But since then I have seen Ranbir’s films and his talent and charisma is undeniable. My prediction is based only on that and not on some glowing expectation from the crown prince.

Doga 7 October 2009
07:42:04 pm

“The bigegst difference between Abhi-HR was training. When HR appeared to a trained “star”, not necessarily an actor, Abhi was looking like someone forced to come into movies at a moment’s notice”

Great Point Kunal, and you know Abhi has mentioned and admitted it many times in interviews too that he was overconfident and later came to know about the things he should have learnt before jumping into the bollywood scene.

By the way good comeback, very long post.

Doga 7 October 2009
07:48:29 pm

Also for the Un-initiated(though must be common knowledge by now), Abhi left his studies overseas to come back to india and join Bollywood.

Now it goes without saying what the reason was(AB corp was in deep mess at that time).

Not making any excuses but just some food for thought.

Doga 7 October 2009
07:55:09 pm

RK is superstar material for sure.

Will be hugely disappointed if he doesnt turn out to be one.

Shahid deserves to be superstar based on his hardwork and diligence.

Imran is a flop star and Harman should quit.(Cant believe i invested so much time on Jaane tu vs 2050 and infact having Harman as fav there, shame on me for going so wrong).

Neil can survive on the base of better movie selections i guess.

Rest there is nothing else out there.

ACHILLES 7 October 2009
08:53:24 pm

Kunal – Hrithik has done and will do outside banner movies – but he is getting these after his hits … he did not get a bhansali or vishal movie before he did JA … similarly he got the ghai/barjatya/yrf movies only after KNPH hit the jackpot – one may say he did sign a fiza/Mission kashmir/K3G before KNPH released – but he had secondary roles in these (which were later extended a bit due to the mania KNPH created). But Ranbir is getting solo movies in KJO/Santoshi/YRF etc banner without a single hit to his name … how to you account for it? I see a big difference here even if you dont.

in reality lineage plays a big role to the support from the industry, media and even audience.

pardesi 7 October 2009
09:03:16 pm

Either it is secondary roles in big director films, or it is films with second string directors – is there a difference? And Hritik replaced Abhishek in Karan’s K3G!

Qalandar 7 October 2009
09:22:55 pm

Not only was Abhishek replaced in Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gham, even his one-scene cameo in the final movie was left out in the editing process. Abhishek said in an interview the film was getting long, and he suggested to Johar to take out his scene. Obviously that was just a polite way of giving the director a graceful exit, and the green light to do what he probably wanted to do anyway.

Bash 7 October 2009
09:38:35 pm

I disagree with Street’s projection of HR as less previledged than those of Abhi/RK. HR had a dream debut. KNPH was crafted so as to put the spotlight on HR (which he did deserve)and make him the star of the proceedings. Kareena who was supposed to have debuted with HR in KNPH, walked out apparently due to excessive attention on HR. She had this in interviews.

The directors who later casted HR were not any less to those who had casted Abhi/RK. Post failures, HR has been avoiding acting with Certain kind of films. Else, it would have been the same case as Abhi/RK. Failures have petrified HR so much that he now wants to act in only those movies which have the right the kind of grandiosity and star centered-ness which suits his unique appeal.

Moreover, HR’s scope as an actor had always been limited. Either he hasn’t explored much or he does not have the talent to. Being conscientious actor that he is, I am sure Hrithik would improve in years to come.

Thats the basic difference IMO. Hrithik wants to succeed and tries to please the audience … while Abhishek seems non-interested. Ranbir I hope will be in between, and hence he has the right attitude.

But in basics, HR, Abhi, RK have all had it the same way when compared to say Shahid, Vivek … (Shahid and Vivek being sons of less popular actors).

I disagree with Street’s prediction that future Bollywood is going towards the kind of films Abhay Deol signs. I believe there are growing levels of cynicism among people of our age groups. We expect films to do more than just entertain, we want films that reflect reality. Its something to do with our changing perceptions. These perceptions do exists, which is why PFC brand of films have got niche audiences and cult success status. But its a minority and it will remain so.

The actual/real audiences (massess) are those who like feel good entertainers, comedies, masala flicks etc with allowable levels of realism. Success of films like Wanted proves it.

Qalandar 7 October 2009
09:55:50 pm

Well said Bash — one disagreement though: I don’t think STREET was predicting that the industry would in fact go the Abhay Deol way; I read his comment as saying that IF one felt it would go the Abhay Deol way, then one needed a good reason for the prediction, and some theory to back it up, such as that one might “expect Bollywood audiences are more interested in the philosophy of actors and what they expect certain actors to deliver them.. and in that vein the type of films Abhay Deol chooses are the future of bollywood …” etc. i.e. I took his point to be that one couldn’t predict Abhay as the future on just any theory (e.g. I can’t say that based on box office returns alone, Abhay is the future; I mean I can say that, but that would be a senseless theory).

pardesi 7 October 2009
10:06:40 pm

I agree completely with what Bash said about Hritik launch (Kunal said that too). In fact the major difference in the HR and AB launch was exactly that, KNPH was created as a vehicle for HR while in Refugee Kareena had the better role and certainly an equal role with a lot of scope and depth. As far as I could tell, all Amisha did was look with glowing eyes on Hritik. And in Saawariya both debutants had roles of equal depth and scope.

Qalandar 7 October 2009
10:25:27 pm

To add to pardesi’s point, one might say that despite their status as launch vehicles, Bhansali and Dutta wanted above all else to be true to their films — i.e. Refugee and Saawariya were not conceived solely as launch-vehicles (Refugee’s second half was messed up, but not because of any desire to make abhishek front and center; rather, Dutta went into “Border” mode in a film that had had a very different vibe in the first half; and despite the occasional nod to Ranbir’s genealogy in “Saawariya”, the film remains Bhansali above all else (anyway that director has a habit of according greater significance to his heroines than most other directors)).

Aside: I think the first half of Refugee is one of the most effective Abhishek Bachchan personae: the odd name, the get-up, the terrain, all combined to create a figure with mythic resonance. One film I wish Abhishek could have done was Asif Kapadia’s “The Warrior”, which would have suited him to a “T”.

pardesi 7 October 2009
10:50:21 pm

Abhishek in Refugee was almost like Abhishek in Drona, except that his persona was sapped of all energy and quite drab in the latter. I disliked The Warrior, for some reason the film made no sense to me and had no appeal for me.

Bash 7 October 2009
11:03:00 pm

KNPH was a launch vehicle. But Hrithik used the oppurtunity. Did his best to deserve it. So much that it became history. And many have tried a similar launch vehicle. Jackie Bhagnani, Harman Baweja etc have tried and failed.

With respect to Abhishek, he didn’t seem to have had a plan for himself. I mean what kind of a success he expected from a movie like Refugee, what kind of films he believed, or what kind of career he wanted for himself etc

He was moderate, decent or average most of his early flicks and that didn’t help him enter the A list actors. The question is what did he want? He wanted to be a success like his father, or be known as a great actor without BO success, or just do great work …

In every stream, Its always people who are aware, driven and put in conscious effort that succeed. Talent comes secondary.

Pardesi agrued with me in SB that no other actor would have done the LAllan of Yuva with as much aplomb. I agree he was good in that role. If its true that he does have potential, its also true that he had been sleeping all this while.

And that IMO is not a quality worthy of a good personality or a role model worthy of fanfare. May be, Abhishek needs a ‘Wake Up’ call. He is perfect the SID.

Bash 7 October 2009
11:14:13 pm

“the odd name, the get-up, the terrain, all combined to create a figure with mythic resonance”

It put me to sleep. The particular resonance. So I guess Abhishek was catering to these kind of audience who like the so called ‘persona’. I find it hard to believe.

Bash 7 October 2009
11:15:58 pm

Q, Did you enjoy watching Drona?

Qalandar 7 October 2009
11:55:17 pm

Re: “So I guess Abhishek was catering to these kind of audience who like the so called ‘persona’.”

That was Dutta, not Abhishek; it was the director’s vision.

Drona and Sharaarat are, as far as I know, the only Abhishek films I haven’t seen. Yet.

julie 8 October 2009
12:04:28 am

“KNPH was a launch vehicle. But Hrithik used the oppurtunity. Did his best to deserve it. So much that it became history. And many have tried a similar launch vehicle. Jackie Bhagnani, Harman Baweja etc have tried and failed.”

Well said Bash. Agree with you. It is one thing to say that an actor had a dream debut but one has to give due credit to Hrithik for capitalising on that opportunity. How many such star sons have been able to do that. KNPH was an okay film in my view, but take Hrithik out of it, it would have been nothing but an average fare. Hrithik at least puts effort in his roles. It is unfair to keep comparing him with Abhishek as the latter not only appeared in some of the most lame scripts, he also came across as a lethargic and rather ambitionless actor much uptil really much later. One can always crtique somebody for their success, but how much can you justify someone’s failures too.

Hrithik had a golden chance to reach the No. 1 position post D2 and Krissh but he blew it away. Perhpaps he is a victim of increasing complacency or perhaps he is just over cautious.

Kunal 8 October 2009
12:10:40 am

There are a few things that I see as undeniable truth:
1) SRK-Aamir have no more than 3-5 years around top, no more than that.
2) Abhishek has genuinely missed the boat of being a top star, he can still prove himself as a good actor, but star factor, he has missed.
3) HR is as close to become the next numero uno as he can ever be, and he has started taking this goal seriously. Kites, Krrishh2 and even guzarish, will only take him to that level.
4) New brigade, RK, IK, SK, have made it all ever so interesting.
5) For fuck’s sake, stop thinking Akki was or ever will be anywhere near these top rankers.

I alo think that definition of being a superstar has changed dramatically, and will continue to do so. Earlier when superstar meant universally accepted, now it means, accepted by majority, soon it will be, whosoever is accepted most. Now this is valid not just in movies, but everywhere. Forexample, Bajaj was number one 2 wheeler brand in India, it was universally accepted, every other 2 wheeler used to be Bajaj, then came the time of Honda, it was accepted by the majority, with more than 50% of market share, Honda was leading brand of 2 wheelers, BUT it was not accepted universally, seeing Yahamaha, Bajaj, LML, was not really that uncommon, now I believe, 2 wheeler market has no clear cut leader. Where Honda is still ahead, with Karizma, CBZ and all, Bajaj is giving a stiff competition with Pulsar, and infact beating Honda in many classes.
Similar can be seen in Amitabh bachchan-SRK case, its easy to assume that AB was universally accepted, whereas SRK always had majority, now, everyone is so close to each otehr that it all depends upon whose movie released this Friday. I can say the same about Kapil Dev-Sachin Tendulkar-Dhoni.

Point being, this is capitalism, consummerism, if you may. The choices available in the market to modern day consumer makes it impossible for any one brand to hold the market with a share of 75-80%. Infact, nowdays no single brand can even hold majority. Earlier when there used to be a handful of big budgeted movie releasing every year, nowdays, Akki releases cost somehwre around 1000-100000000000 cr, depending upon who you trust. With emergence of “stars” like RK, IK, Harman, Abhi, and evolution of SK, Saif, Akki, in the presence of HR, SRK, Aamir, has definitely increased the options available to audience, which directly results in lower fan base of each one of them.

Having said all that, RK seems like the best bet to pose a challenge to HR’s stardom, or expected rise to superstardom. Reason being, both seems to have got a similar fanbase, extensively college going youth. Not only both are darlings of media, both seems to be center of every movie they do, both seem to be trained, likeable, and very media savvy. They know what they are doing, and how. Only difference is that when HR slipped, lost track, if you may, after his stupendous first flick, RK seems to be recovering, and how, after his initial gaffe.

RK after his 3 years in BW seems to be ahead of where HR was after his first 3 years, basically because RK has been smarter in picking movies. Also, RK seems to be able to sustain this rise as well. Now comes the question that if RK can diversify, which for me HR never did, except one off KMG. HR seems to be same love-with-himself model types, whether while being Aryan in D2, or Akbar in JA, and even RK seems to be the same laid back, easy going, happy go lucky guy he was in Saawariya, to BAH to latest WUS. Diversification has never been a forte of BW as such, but it will just add a dimension of the actor, and will somehow increase the weight in his challenge for becoming next number 1.

ow comes the question, where it leaves IK, and SK? IK for me never had enough talent, even in JTYJN, one of the most over rated, retarded, pseudo movie ever, he was dumbshit. SK, whereas, seems to have the talent, but lack of sources somehow leaves him in a tight spot. For example, both SK and RK did movies for YRF, but in RK’s case, when movie was about Rk, SK’s was Rani’s comeback through and through. Sk seriously will have to put his heart and soul into his next movies, and has to make better choices. SK is most direct competition to RK right now, and he has to up the ante to pose as a serious challeger. But I think he will always be one of the also-rans. never to the top, but always reliable.

Harman has to do something now, a few good movies, and he will be on track of being “one of those”. Neil Nitin Mukesh, I have no idea how he will fare, he is one actor I have no opinion of. But he is doing well for himself, Jail will show his acting abilities, and will get him a few nominations, as its a Madhur-national-award-Bhandarkar’s movie.

Well, these are my rants

Bash 8 October 2009
12:35:08 am

“That was Dutta, not Abhishek; it was the director’s vision.”

I believe an actor must also have some vision, no matter what vision a director has. Particularly a debut movie, where in Abhishek was playing a protagonist. Abhishek is son of one of India’s biggest superstar. People all around were speculating on his debut. It wasn’t like he is a normal actor acting in a role where the director has the complete control.

Its not a crime to not have one vision, particularly for a debut like that of Abhishek’s. Fact remains that Abhishek didn’t have a plan of his own, and doesn’t really know what works for him.

Unlike Hrithik he seems aware and wanted to the debut movie to work. Atleast as per interviews, you find people vouching for how Hrithik was gearing up for the two looks, how hard he praticed to get the look right etc … And its shows onscreen.

Yakuza 8 October 2009
09:03:37 am

either comparision should be based on talent or box-office tracks, hardly matters the source of opportunity, If we look at talent they all possess, Hritik has international appeal and style, Abhishek is more Desi and Ranbir is youthful cutie.

Each of them has their own legacy in strength and weakness, you can’t imagine Hritik in Guru, at the same time Abhishek in krish is out of box, Ranbir is 3 year kid only(I mean 3 movies old) with same stuff every time(romance).

Hritik is strong in Dance, Action, Style but lacks in dialogue delivery (Yadein was wrost, However JA was his best try to overcome this) and comic sequences. Quite mediocre in displaying crying emotions(He fails miserably in K3G and yadein).

Abhishek is strong in Intense (Yuva, Guru), Emotional (Sarkar) and comic (Dostana, JBJ, B&B) scenes. His dialogue delivery is excellent(Guru). He is Weak in dancing skills and style, Mediocre in action (however Drona was JOKE in this department too, But i can recall his good action sequences in Yuva, Zameen and Dhoom).

Comparing Ranbir to Hritik and Abhishek is not justifiable looking at his 3 movies (same genre) old career. Still all I can say Ranbir till now has displayed good talent in what so ever he has offered and promise good future as well.

Qalandar 8 October 2009
09:17:13 am

Re: “i can recall his good action sequences in Yuva, Zameen and Dhoom)…”

I would add RUN to that list too, in fact I would anyday take it action-wise over the likes of Dhoom 1…that scene in the underpass, and then the one with the motorbikes outside, are my favorite abhishek action sequences along with the one on the bridge towards the end of Yuva. While not strictly speaking “action”, abhishek’s stalking of Vivek in the hospital in Yuva is also outstanding. Let’s hope Raavan has more in this vein…

ACHILLES 8 October 2009
12:29:14 pm

“For fuck’s sake, stop thinking Akki was or ever will be anywhere near these top rankers.”

Thats harsh … but true … Akshay is much like the govinda in 90s … had a golden run with comedies from PHP to SIK (except JEM or Tashan) … infact Govinda did a lot of movies before he diversified as a comedy specialist much like Akshay … if Akshay was reckoned as an action star in 90s, govinda was once known as the dancing hero in 80s which he made good use in his later dhawan comedies … not sure if anyone wud call Govinda as a top star based on his laurels … if one does then Akki is a top star too (and both have had long careers in bw) … the media narrative is increasingly showcasing Blue as the life-line for Akshay Kumar … but in reality even if Blue fails – it will be DDD which will test if Akshay’s comedy can still pull the audience or not.

I dont believe hrithik can become the number one star ever. period … he has lost too much time with hardly a few films to boast of … even though his reach to the audience is likely to the widest after srk/aamir if one goes by the amount of business his hit movies have done so far … He is basically limited by his own self – lack of initiative to do more films … same as abhishek’s lack of interest or ambition. A kites next year or a krrish 2 after 3-4 years will hardly make him the top draw (assuming these turn out big blockbusters).

Shahid does not have enough charm, his choice of movies is still not that good … we have heard ranbir is the new favorite among college audience – but what puzzles me is how come the BO of his films so far refutes that? if college going audience is really excited, it usually results in big grosses. lets see with his recent line up of movies.

Imran/Harman/Neil – i think they will survive for a few years as actors … same with Farhan … why do we miss Farhan Akhtar when we talk about star kids and family connections? I guess no fans of any star is insecure of Farhan to bring him up in defense of anyone! LOL

ACHILLES 8 October 2009
01:00:29 pm

I also dont understand what we mean by ‘trained’ stars’???

Am I to understand that Abhishek or Konkona are not trained by their father/mother and mother resp? dont these superlative actor parents help their kids about expressions and dialogue and other technical aspects of acting? i will be surprised if Bachchan can give full page newspaper ads on Guru and not help his son out when they are sharing the same sets?

But i have doubts what kind of acting training a dumb actor like rakesh roshan can give to his ladla when compared to amitabh bachchan or rishi kapoor!

The likes of the dancing stars like hrithik/harman/ranbir have trained themselves in dancing … very true .. but where did good dancing take harman? i thot harman and ranbir danced superb in LS or BAH … why did the dance not yield BO numbers? didnt Hrithik danced great in all his earlier flops?

trained dancers doesnt help much with the current evolution of BW cinema in this decade … hrithik cudnt showcase his dancing in JA (unless the sufi twirl for 2 sec is considered dancing) … but i wud concede that aamir does manage to shake his ass even in a TZP! anyways, imo dancing is giving diminishing returns and the new-age superstar wont need dancing skills.

If we are considering stunts and action, training does help if one is from martial arts background like Akshay … no wonder his actions always look convincing .. else you need body language like hrithik roshan to make stupid stunts look good on screen … and that cannot be trained … its a natural flair … guyz like abhishek are too stiff for such body language .. and attempting a drona will always be disasters … no wonder in every dhoom movie abhishek gets overshadowed – be it more or less.

Screen presence also cannot be trained … its something beyond that … so i still need clarifications on ‘trained stars’ concept.

btw, i do agree a director can make his actor look good and convincing if he wants to – cinema is after all a director’s medium.

S T R E E T 8 October 2009
05:12:25 pm

“Also about, what I feel like a ridiculous point in Street’s post (no offence mate) that RR will stop taking HR is he has 10 flops, whereas other directors will keep on taking Abhi/RK even if they get 20… what?? ”

Hahahaha.. as ridiculous as it may sound, it is very very true. Here’s what I mean when I say RR might have stopped making films with Hrithik if he had delivered a few consecutive flops.
Say, RR has 100 cr earned (from past hits) and he makes KNPH with RR but the film flops.. then he makes another 2 films with him and they flop too.. each time costing him 25cr .. So after 3 back-to-back films with Hrithik losing him a total of 75cr, don’t you think it’d be wise of him to make his next film with someone else? Can he really risk having another flop with his son? He’ll go bankrupt and then son and father can both go fishing somewhere. I bet Hrithik would himself tell him to make his next film with somebody who can better gurantee success.
But with Abhishek, he or his dad never had to worry about such a scenario, coz Abhishek not only had 3 flops.. but 13-14 flops in a row before he got his first hit, losing perhaps hundreds of crores (of others’ money) until he became a bankable star. Ofcourse, it’s still up in the air as to who really was responsible for Dhoom and BNB’s success, but just let’s not get there.

I am surprised at how surprised you are the notion of RR starring someone else in his films if he realizes Hrithik cann’t deliver him any more hits. Forget RR, has Yash Chopra ever directed his son in his movies? Would it make sense for Aditya to make RNBDJ with his brother in the lead?

And please, don’t tell me Abhishek’s lineage had nothing to do with all those films he was being signed in… inspite of delivering flop after flop.

rkb 8 October 2009
05:32:41 pm

“He’ll go bankrupt and then son and father can both go fishing somewhere”.

lol…

S T R E E T 8 October 2009
05:39:42 pm

“Also, Abhi/RK, both got a good launch, but nowhere near HR.”

Okay.. you tell me.. If you were given any of the following three possible films to be launched in, what would you choose?

1. A film by JP Dutta (in 2000) that’s prior to the three 3 flops Abhishek gave him (Refugee, LoC, UJ). a director who has arguably the best film of the last 20 years to boast off (Ghulami) and has a whole bunch of other great films…and known for extracting career performances from his actors. Basically, a director who’s a top 5 on any critic/trade analyst/fan’s anticipiated list (again in 2000) btw his last film was the biggest grosser of the year.

2. A Bhansali Film… a director who had just delivered a solo hit with a 60 yr old guy, extracting a national-award winning performance.. with 3 back-to-back hits and his only flop was a decade and half ago…

3. A Rakesh roshan Film.. a director who’s had a superhit and a couple of other hits. he’s also had number of flops and unlike Dutta, whose flops in the 80’s came in offbeat flicks, his flops were full fledge commercial flicks. And NONE of his films has ever been praised by any critic… at least nothing close to the type of acclaim the above two has had. btw..3 of his last 4 films bit the dust

I dunno about you, but I’d easily choose either Dutta or Bhansali.. not only had their recent films been successful, but even if my film flopped I’d have the advantage of being in a possibly acclaimed film.. and even if that’s not gonna happen, at least I am assured of decent performance, seeing how they’ve’ been able to extract career performances from all the actors they casted in their movies.

S T R E E T 8 October 2009
05:43:55 pm

and yeah… forgot the Bhansali film also happens to be co-produced by one of the biggest names in the international market (read Hollywood)- SONY

S T R E E T 8 October 2009
05:49:21 pm

Also, how is Hrithik at an advantage starring opposite a nobody?

In Abhi and RK’s case, the audience have double reason to go watch the film (beside the fact that both Refugee and Saawariya were major releases).. not only to see their fav actors’ starsons but also their fac actors’ star-daughters.

If I were to ask for launch pad, I’d prefer to be in a film with a salebale name… so maybe perhaps they come to watch her but notice me as well.

S T R E E T 8 October 2009
05:52:16 pm

The easiest way to put it is this.. RR was 2nd or 3rd tier producer/director in 2000 but Dutta and Bhansali were easily the most sought-after directors in the respective years of the films in discussion.

S T R E E T 8 October 2009
06:01:14 pm

And if it wasn’t for KNPH being a success, Hrithik’s role in K3G wudda been reduced Manoj Bajpai’s role in Veer Zaara. Even in Fiza his role was extended only after KNPH’s success.

Interstingly, even though Abhishek had yet to deliver a anything close to a success while Hrithik had already delivered a blockbuster and semi-hit, both of them were given equal footage in Bharjatya’s MPKDH

pardesi 8 October 2009
07:09:28 pm

I have several questions for Street:

1. By what benchmark is Ghulami the BEST film of the last 20 years?
2. Which of JP Dutta’s films (other than Border) were big successes?
3. Which of Bhansali’s films was a clean HIT, let alone anything bigger than hit?
4. Yes Black was a big critical success, but why ignore the fact that the so called star-son was actually a lowly assistant director on the unit (as was the star-daughter)? Is that how star-sons get big roles? By being flunkeys on the units of other prima-donna directors?
5. Why so much effort to downplay Rakesh Roshan’s successes? His Karan Arjun was a huge block-buster and the favorite of many. And he had a few other hits in his kitty.
6. Why mix up critical acclaim and box office success? If someone has had many a flop then they will hardly go for critical acclaim. Even Konkona Sen Sharma said that she now wants BO success!!! We can see from NG debate right on thsi thread that BO success is what we look for, NOT critical acclaim. If it was that then Ranbir’s debut award in every award ceremony would already remove any doubts about his ability! What would we be debating?
7. Sony actually got Bhansali into more trouble than anything else. By refusing to budge on date flexibility they set up a confrontation with the biggest film that year, and killed Saawariya! A film that opened at 22 cr opposite Om Shanti Om would have at the very least been a success with a clear opening week.
8. It is not about starring against a nobody – but a role that focuses only on the lead man and is the only author backed role in the film, showcasing one man.
9. Even before KNPH Hritik had ousted Abhishek from K3G. So that could not be reversed no matter what the outcome of KNPH.
10. Aditya Chopra did try with Uday and gave him multiple roles in YRF productions. And now he gets a chance to be lead man opposite Priyanka Chopra – this after the public opinion about Uday is crystal clear.

NyKavi 8 October 2009
10:53:59 pm

HR was definitely a trained actor, I had read long ago somewhere that he had been preparing for like 7-8 yrs, learning acting/dancing/action etc before KNPH.
To Achilles point about “did their star parents not train them”, yes, one can safely say that BigB trained JuniorB to ape him in almost every sequence in Refugee. In 2001, I saw KNPH and Refugee back to back over 2 days, and just cudnt believe my eyes, seeing the superiority of HR over Abhishek in every way. It took Abhishek a couple of movies to shake off the BigB hangover. And it took him like 10 movies to deliver his best career perf in Yuva, and then the next 10 movies to deliver a decent comic act in Dostana.

As for RK being offered YRF roles before his debut itself, during the time of HR’s debut, YRF only made one movie at a time, and it was always with SRK. So there was no question of HR or Abhi getting those roles. YRF and all the big production houses have only started parallel production of movies in the last 5-6 yrs.

Totally agree with Bash/Pardesi/Kunal. Dutta had to give Kareena equal footage. And if he was indeed that great, after Border, he wouldnt have gone on to create rehashes of all his pre 2000 movies with war+desert and few such similar thematic elements everytime in replaceable situations. He clearly has not done anything novel post Border. Looks like he flamed out post Border. If he had creativity, Refugee wouldve been a hit.

Same goes for SLB. The guy clearly drank his own kool-aid. Ek color pe picture kya bana di, woh har picture mein color thokne lag gaya. All the faux media hype went into his head.

If Abhi-RK superior lineage fathers were any sort of guide, why is that they both appeared in disasters of movies as their launch vehicles. It seems like a lowlevel actor like RakeshRoshan guided his son brilliantly.

I disagree with predictions of Abhishek’s endless longevity even after giving flops. Bwood history is littered with starsons turning off the lights after a few years of consistent flops. Abhishek has had a zerosum game so far, his avg and hit movies have nuetralized his flops, and that is the only reason he is still around.

The curse of bwood is that avg folks with the right lastname keep getting breaks. And who knows how many unknown gems keep getting crushed under its punishing mom-n-pop star system.

Kunal 9 October 2009
01:23:18 am

Ach “But i have doubts what kind of acting training a dumb actor like rakesh roshan can give to his ladla when compared to amitabh bachchan or rishi kapoor!”
I have one word for you, Ach, “Maradona”.
Greatest soccer player ever, may be, might fail to get one of the most talented teams of soccer, in the next WC. Sunil gavaskar couldn’t make Rohan next Sachin Tendulkar. So, assumption that rishi or AB will train their kids better is wrong.

Also, trianing and prepration means the whole package, from acting to looks, to presence to dialogue delivery, Abhi looked like a raw product, other than copying his father’s certain mannerisms, as very well put by NyKavi, he didn’t do shit.

Street: “I am surprised at how surprised you are the notion of RR starring someone else in his films if he realizes Hrithik cann’t deliver him any more hits.”
No, surprising part is taht you think that RR will give up on his son before anyone else. RR will make his movies with Aamir and SRk if he fails with HR, but then again will get back to HR, as long as he can, infact after everyone quits on him, then RR will make 3 more movies, and then will quit on his son. just like it happened with Uday.Again very well explained by Pardesi.

“I dunno about you, but I’d easily choose either Dutta or Bhansali.. not only had their recent films been successful, but even if my film flopped I’d have the advantage of being in a possibly acclaimed film..”
I would rather chose a movie made by my father, with nothing but me in his mind. Somehting I have prepared for 7 years, like NyKavi said.

ACHILLES 9 October 2009
10:02:16 am

“Abhishek has had a zerosum game so far, his avg and hit movies have nuetralized his flops, and that is the only reason he is still around.”

Nykavi – a very fair call … yes after one full decade in the industry Abhishek Bachchan has had a zerosum game. He is hardly a star except for his Dad and wife … so if Mehra or Ashutosh cannot get any of the top stars due to lack of availability or rejection of scripts, these directors will rightfully turn to abhishek (Mani and abhishek is another story like leo-scorsese where abhi gets credit for utilising the oppurtunity he was lucky to get).

Abhishek in this decade is much like Akshay Kumar of 90s as far as BO is concerned – but is reputedly a better actor.

But my issue with Abhishek has always been a different one – the entire media projection of a new superstar during middle of the decade … and the ridiculous spin-offs where average fares were consistently projected as ‘hits’ to support those claims back in 2005 … and his lineage was more responsible for that advantage than his own merit or success. Movies like bluffmaster, dus, sarkar, etc etc were coined as hits on very modest returns – sarkar may have done hit business only in mumbai – outside it was average to below avg – but then the media were treating all these movies as some pan-india big hits to support their theory – where in reality an unbiased trade acknowledgment wud be semi-hit verdict. I will take another example – sarkar raj – on a related note … the movie did average buisness in mumbai and flopped in most of other places – but then the media was so keen to label it as a hit … eventually the euphoria died down after it tanked badly and the drona disaster turned the media perception … a similar story with dostana being a hit with marginal returns and so on.

In reality after doing so many movies (not sure of the count but likely to be close to 30) … he has only 3 hits – Dhoom, BnB, Guru – with guru being his only solo hit so far. Where is the case of a commercially salable or bankable star?

I do hope ranbir or the next heir dont end up like this.

And about aping amitabh – it was not just about refugee, check guru at many points. Also what i was refering to is that in many of abhi’s non-flops – he shared the sets with amitabh himself – amitabh in these movies not only purposefully gave scope to abhishek but is also likely to have guided him through behind the sets. Is it a co-incidence that abhishek’s career came back in track during the period when father-son started doing movies together?

In a similar note – Konkona was spoon-fed regarding acting by her mom who directed her in Iyer. And most of her lip biting and expressions are same as aparna sen’s own acting during her heyday. Watch konkona’s movies one after another – its the same one-dimensional acting/expressions/dialogue delivery and even very similar roles. She is good in these … but where is the diversity of a good actor?

ACHILLES 9 October 2009
10:08:49 am

and before any explosion lemme clarify – i am not saying anything with a viewpoint of hrithik being a good actor … imo he is just a competent star in the limited work he choses to fo. The above issues have nothing to do with hrithik.

S T R E E T 9 October 2009
03:12:29 pm

pardesi.. here’s some local NGites on Ghulami

Askhayshah – “masterpiece”
http://masterpraz.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/my-review-of-j-p-duttas-ghulami-hindi-1985/

aditya – calling Ghulami as Dutta’s best film to date
http://www.naachgaana.com/2008/05/14/30-underrated-films-of-the-past-30-years/
and on his top 100 films list (Hindi, Hollywood combined)
http://www.naachgaana.com/2007/04/12/i-hereby-unveil-my-top-100-greatest-films/

pranav – amongst the top 10 films of the 80’s
http://www.naachgaana.com/2007/09/12/top-films-of-1980s/

satyam’s top 100 (again hindi, tamil, Hollywood etc)
http://www.naachgaana.com/2007/04/11/a-personal-top-100/
also calls it as “the greatest Hindi film since Trashul” here
http://www.naachgaana.com/2007.....mment-5128

I suck at using teh search options on NG.. so if you want more.. go ahead and check it out for yourself.

S T R E E T 9 October 2009
03:19:16 pm

And it’s funny how them Bachchan fans who spell out out “prestige” at the drop of a hat claiming that critical acclaim aint important.

Here’s another example .. Anil Sharma vs Gowariker. The former’s Gadar was 3 times the grosser Lagaan was.. but today how many actors/stars are lined up outside Sharma’s house crying to do his next film? … while Gowariker juggled with Aamir, Shahrukh and even Hrithik since then.
Ofcourse the fact that RR in 2000 was nowehere close to teh kind of success in his kitty that Anila Sharma today can boast off.. and Gowariker today doesn’t have half as many crittically acclaimed movies that Dutta had during Refugee, further proves my point.

And for the nth time.. Both Dutta and Bhansali were coming off major hits while RR was coming off a failure during the movies in question here.

S T R E E T 9 October 2009
03:25:43 pm

But ofcourse amongst all these little talk the main point the crux of the discussion is lost.

Hrithik could only get RR to launch him.. who was a 2nd tier or 3rd tier name amongst the directors in Bollywood during KNPH. But RR and Abhi could chose whoever the fuk they wanted to launch him and they chose the biggest names in the industry of the time to launch them.

If RR and Abhi wanted, a 100 Rakesh Roshan types would be lined up willing to launch them.. but I cann’t possibly see why Dutta or Bhansali be making abig budget extravagant affair with some Roshan’s son… let alone the inclusion of a Sony in the mix. .. and would a Kareena Kapoor or SOnam Kapoor be willing to debut opposite him? no fuking way!!

S T R E E T 9 October 2009
03:26:19 pm

.. unless ofcourse Bhansali and Dutta are jiggri dosts of takla Roshan.

S T R E E T 9 October 2009
03:29:04 pm

“I would rather chose a movie made by my father, with nothing but me in his mind.”

yea.. jerry buss should get rid of Kobe and Gasol.. and get his sons playing for his Lakers team.

S T R E E T 9 October 2009
03:32:10 pm

And it’s funny how so many here dispute that Bhansali and Dutta were bigger names than RR.. nobody’s yet to dispute the other obvious advantages that an Abhi and Ranbir have over a Hrithik or Shahid…the one about the media, trade and even the audience wishing to see Abhi and Ranbir succeed and hoping for them to be the next emperors of Bollywood.. because “they’re meant to!” thanks to their lineage.

Qalandar 9 October 2009
06:14:36 pm

Off the main topic, but I too would rank “Ghulami” as among my favorite Hindi films from the last 25-30 years. If I could pick only one film from the 1980s, I would probably pick Ghulami — for its epic sweep and compelling narrative that won’t let go, it’s superb dialogs, and a superb cast, with Smita Patil, Dharam, Naseer, and Mithun all in good form.

Aside: Dutta has only had two hits in his quarter-century career: Ghulami and Border. Everything else (between Ghulami and Border, that would be Hathyar, Yateem, Batwara, Kshatriya; after Border that would be Refugee, LoC, and Umraojaan) has not worked at the box office, to varying degrees. That being said I have a great weakness for Hathyar and Batwara too; Yateem was good too, but I would rank it behind those two. Overall I would nevertheless watch a Dutta film in the cinema — whoever it starred — before the films of many other directors.

pardesi 9 October 2009
06:33:30 pm

Dutta films now have a sameness to them that makes them dull. But I have a fondness even for Refugee.

I would ask Street to search Naachgaana for how many have found Bhansali films successful at the BO! His LAST film before Saawariya was NOT a hit. Nor was any film other than Devdas a hit. Some would even debate the BO status of Devdas.

But even if Bhansali and Dutta have some critical clout how does that help someone whose career is in doldrums due to lack of hits? About Ranbir, I said this twice and it was ignored – he served as AD for Black, so it was not his name that got him the role.

ACHILLES 9 October 2009
07:59:34 pm

yeah and it was his surname and family connections that made ranbir or sonam AD for black … isnt that obvious? what credential did he have to get that job ahead of other aspirant directors? … whats the difference? even hrithik slogged as AD for years before takla made a film for his son … what does such an argument prove? nothing.

Qalandar 9 October 2009
08:33:14 pm

I had left two comments on a similar issue on Satyamshot, and am pasting them here because they are relevant:

“Let me add that there is a foundational problem with this sort of criticism of “birth”, inasmuch as it leaves the impression that everyone else is getting to wherever on merit alone. Why should the “luck” of being born into x family (or of looking like an illustrious parent; this is not often remarked upon but is necessary for the symbolism IMO; Tushar Kapoor, had he looked a lot like Jeetu, would have been thought of as more of a star son than he is; an Abhishek who looked nothing like his dad would have been thought of as less of one), outweigh the luck of being randomly discovered on a bus, as legend has it Rajnikanth was? In neither case is “merit” involved in the conventional sense of that term.”

“Two additional points:

1. The other problem with criticism of nepotism is that there appears to be no public demand for less nepotism in these matters. If anything, the public seems excited by the prospect of seeing the offspring of stars they have loved. This is at least partly because of the psychological relationship that people have to “their” stars, which is not the same kind of relationship as people have to bureaucrats or officials — i.e. notions of “efficiency” and “who can do the job best” hardly ever figure in these matters. [If they did, Naseer would be a bigger star than most, but that isn't in fact the case.] On the contrary, people want to “feel” the aura again and again. I don’t see this as a moral question, it is completely amoral.

2. I am not suggesting that the phenomenon is above critique — I find it quite problematic on aesthetic and creative grounds, as IMO it engenders an insularity in the film industry that wasn’t previously there — but a “fairness” critique is itself problematic, as even in the case of NON-star sons/daughters, one of the biggest determinants is luck and NOT “merit”, and it is hard to see why that sort of luck should have a moral advantage over genealogical luck. Jackie Shroff undoubtedly must have slogged his ass off, but better actors than him, likely more charismatic performers than him, did so and never got a break with Subhash Ghai. Can he complain that Hrithik has been luckier than him? No, because he has been lucky with respect to others too. He might fairly claim that he has had to struggle harder than a Ranbir Kapoor, but often such judgments become more complicated the more one thinks about the situation — it isn’t clear to me that a Jackie has in fact slogged more than an Aamir Khan or a Hrithik Roshan; has he faced more psychological stress than an Abhishek Bachchan after all his flops and the pressure of being Amitabh’s son? Why is no-one talking about the “luck” of being born male — and getting to be a hero even if one is doddering and out of shape — as opposed to female — even brilliant talents like Madhuri Dixit have far shorter shelf lives than a mediocre talent like Jackie Shroff? I don’t necessarily see one kind of luck as trumping the others in how wicked its effects are.”

pardesi 9 October 2009
08:34:04 pm

Ranbir had trained in film school, don’t know what strings Sonam pulled – but Bhansali kept declaring that she lost 30 kg before Saawariya so in Black time she could not have been hired for superstar looks.

Working in your Dad’s business – that is a given.

pardesi 9 October 2009
08:36:45 pm

True – if anything the way female stars are discarded is absurd. Juhi and Madhuri are a case in point – extremes in talent and looks and they are done well before 40.

ACHILLES 9 October 2009
08:56:57 pm

what training did ranbir take in any film school? acting or direction?

If it was in acting, then how does it serve as ‘credentials’ to become assistant director to SLB?

If it was direction, then how does it serve as credentials to get a launchpad as a star in SLB film?

i can see some sense in Q’s argument – questioning morality in an amoral industry is itself amoral … good defense for Abhishek!

pardesi 9 October 2009
09:02:21 pm

He trained in BOTH acting and directing at the Lee Strasberg Film School.

imgr8 9 October 2009
09:54:13 pm

For Ach and Street: RK sat outside SLB’s office for 4 hours before SLB noticed him and looked at his portfolio unlike Sonam who got his Daddy to call SLB for her RK directed quite a few short films, infact one of the short film he acted in was nominated for student Oscars, it didnt win there but it did win best short at the Indian Film Festival (some indian film fest) held in NYC every year Here’s clips from two of his student shorts for your viewing pleasure. So its not as if he didnt have anything in his portfolio to prove his abilities. I guess any newcomer, be it from a film school or anywhere else would have similar credentials.

http://www.ranbirkapoor.net/media/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=3&task=videodirectlink&id=16

http://www.ranbirkapoor.net/me.....#038;id=51

imgr8 9 October 2009
09:58:16 pm

And Street, can I request you to change the spelling of RK’s name in the title of your post? I expect you to atleast get that right if nothing else

rkb 9 October 2009
10:38:36 pm

Where is the student Oscar information img8?

imgr8 10 October 2009
01:42:00 am

I couldnt find it on the Oscars site because they only have a list of the winners but here’s some for you

http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/news/2004/04/22/1002/index.html
http://www.blackbearfilm.com/education/educationsalon2004.html (scroll down)

And the other film festival where it won was IAAC

The concerned short: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765819/

nostarthegreatest 10 October 2009
08:49:53 pm

Apart from the fact that this whole star son/daughter or filmy connection is unfair to the newcomers, how does it affect as an audience? I was thinking about this. Audience can always reject films if they dont like the performances or any other factor.
In the past decades, two of the superstars or people who have made their huge marks – Shahrukh and Amitabh – both were outsiders. Are we missing some one like that?

Kunal 11 October 2009
02:38:00 am

Street: yea.. jerry buss should get rid of Kobe and Gasol.. and get his sons playing for his Lakers team.

Yeah, if they were trained to play at that level, and were good enough for that level, they would have been doing that, but then who cares, they are making more money, they were trained for different aspect of the game, jyst like what I believe Abhi was being trained for.

Also, can I not sping the argument and say that Abhi and RK were not lucky enough that their fathers didn’t have enough money to launch their sons? And they had to look for elsewhere, while knowing that no one in this world can do as much as your father can.

S T R E E T 13 October 2009
09:47:46 am

“Yeah, if they were trained to play at that level, and were good enough for that level, they would have been doing that… ”

But that’s the whole point.. Hrithik’s dad was never a top level diredctor.. he as not conisdered among the elite. An NBA analogy would be.. that he’d be a D-league guy while the likes of Bachchan and Kapoor got top league directors to not only launch him but their first 5-10 films already on the works.

On the same note, I must say that it’s not only a Big B or a Rishi asking these people to direct his son (in fact I would even buy the notion that they din’t do any asking to begin with) but the industry big wigs themselves lined up outside their doors to luanch him, sign them for subsequent films… but fcourse all due to their last name.

or else, what could explain the fact that YRF, Bharjathya, Ratnam etc offering Abhishek films in spite of delivering 10-12 consecutive flops?

or how about the fact that Ranbir had hardly set foot in Bollywood, and already singned with the most sought after directors/production houses in the industry? plz don’t tell me talent.. coz there’s half-a-dozen newcomers who have/had way better performances to start off their careers and even if you don’t agree with that and claim that Ranbir’s the best thing since sliced bread … how about the fact that most of those movies he was signed for even before Saawariya had relased.

Kunal 13 October 2009
06:27:47 pm

^^^^^^
I won’t disagree to the notion that all these three, HR, Rk and Abhi, had a huge advantage because of there last names. I also won;t disagree that in this case Abhi and RK had bigger last names, and hence more directors were interested in taking Abhi and RK, not just more, but as you said, bigger. BUt even with all these factors, biggest advantage to HR was his own father was directing the movie, and even if he was a D grade director, he still was better than AB dna RK as directors, and if AB and RK were producing the movie, it would have given advantage to their sons, but it wasn’t the case. Infact, KNPH success I will give to RR, even KMG. Not to say that HR didn;t have talent to pull off the role, but the the whole movie was made in a way that there is only one highlight, he made sure that his son gets best scenes, which make him look even better. For example. same HR, when danced in other movies, never look as good as when he dances in his fatehr’s movies, not because he is a bad dancer, just because the choreo in RR’s movies is just amazing. Compare KNPH with D2, you will know what I am talking about.

I am not saying that HR is not talented, but he is not as much as people make him out to be, and hiw biggest advantage has been his father around him. The same RK, when he will work under his father’s banner, will look even better.

“how about the fact that Ranbir had hardly set foot in Bollywood, and already singned with the most sought after directors/production houses in the industry? plz don’t tell me talent.. coz there’s half-a-dozen newcomers who have/had way better performances to start off their careers and even if you don’t agree with that and claim that Ranbir’s the best thing since sliced bread … how about the fact that most of those movies he was signed for even before Saawariya had relased.”

For this sheer reason, I will celebrate the success of Shahid Kapoor more than RK, Abhi or HR.

akshay shah 13 October 2009
07:58:01 pm

Q: Excellent set of thoughts, however I would HEAVILY disagree with “than a mediocre talent like Jackie Shroff?”

One would be hard pushed to call Jackie a “mediocre” talent after PARINDA, KAASH, GARDISH, FALAK, ANGAAR, 1942 A LOVE STORY, and even SAMAY!

Granted his career didn’t shape up in the longer-term then say a Anil Kapoor, however his past efforts shouldn’t be sidelined so easily!

Angels and Belds 13 October 2009
08:26:42 pm

A launch has absolutely nothing to do with who becomes a superstar. Nor does BO performance alone (tho it helps). Finally an actor has to connect to the audience. As abstract as it may sound – it is the x factor which is charisma or whatever one may want to call it which makes someone a superstar.

both salman and aamir had super launches and super hits in their first movie. SRK had a deewana and then a baazigar. What transpired as they say is history. Amitabh had a saath hindustani which bombed. But be it Amitabh or SRK or Rajesh Khanna – it was their charisma that worked – and boy did it work.

Based on that classification alone – only Hrithik and Ranbir are bonafide superstars. Rest are also rans..

btw someone talked about randhir kapoor in a not so positive way – i absolutely enjoyed his movies – very good entertainement. And yes jackie shroff has had one or 2 good movies – but he cant act for nuts!

julie 14 October 2009
11:57:43 pm

In my view – Out of the three, Hrithik is the only bonafide superstar. Ranbir has a long journey to cover before he could even be classified as a near superstar. His third movie which made a good impression in sections and pockets of the multiplex audience, again has failed to really garner an impressive total. 20 crores in two weeks and ending pretty much at 23-25 crores is decent but not a great performance. I made this observation before about Ranbir, that his metrosexual looks and appeal necessarily restrict him to a limited multiplex audience base. Hrithik has a much wider appeal and target base, with both single screen and multiplex audience. To his credit, his dancing skills, perseverance and extraordinary good looks have all contributed towards his success. I personally find Ranbir endearing, but one cannot shy away from reality. I will put Shahid marginally ahead of Ranbir, although again nowhere near Hrithik as yet.

At this point I will also put Abhishek ahead of these two guys. He has more experience and his last few films, be it Dostana or D6 have put up more impressive numbers than Ranbir and Shahid’s prestige projects. The point is that we are quick to jump to guns when we see an emerging star and classify him as the next big thing that has happened in BW. So many efforts have been made in media and blogs to write off SRK but lo behold, his next project has always managed to shut the trap of critics. Nevertheless it is refreshing to see young faces like Ranbir and Shahid filling up the space of the romantic young hero, but it is far too soon to call them superstars. Shahid has been in the game much much longer and while I see him working well in niche areas, he is not really a massy actor like a Salman, SRK, or a Hrithik. He could fall in the category of a classy actor like Aamir much later in his innings but not now.

S T R E E T 15 October 2009
03:12:56 pm

Kunal..”For this sheer reason, I will celebrate the success of Shahid Kapoor more than RK, Abhi or HR.”

Well here’s the thing. I am not anti-Ranbir.. nor do I really care much about Hrithik. The questions that I am raising for Ranbir today, were the exact same ones I have raised about Abhishek in the past.. and hence I was made into an Abhi-hater here.. and subsequently into an Amitabh hater too on this very forum. Going over some of the comments again, I noticed the same thing might be happening with Ranbir now too. Sooner than later, I’d be termed a Rishi Kapoor hater and then perhaps a Raj kapoor hater too. As I have said earlier I haven’t really made up my mind about Ranbir coz I just haven’t seen enough of him to build any kind of impression. I might actually become a big fan of his.. but I still aint gonna deny the advantage that he has over the other actors.. or the politics I find problematic… just as I don’t deny the advantage that a Hrithik has perhaps over a Shahid Kapoor. or for that reason a Shahid Kapoor’s advantage over a Shiny Ahuja. And I don’t base my likes over who had it harder either. I’m just calling a spade a spade here… while some Ranbir “fans” are denying the very obvious. I see how Ranbir’s half-baked successes are celebrated and how the media and the public are so eager to hand him (or Abhi, Kareena) the reigns of Bollywood, simply due to their lineage, and I am bringing up the issue of nepotism. I am not trying to put him down, nor am I saying that one shouldn’t be a Ranbir fan. I, myself, prefer a number of starsons in bollywood today over the ones without any filmi connection.
In fact, where Ranbir’s concerned, a lot of what is hapening is not in his control anyways. He doesn’t tell people to treat him favourably because of his lineage… he may very likely be sick of it, to be honest. And as I mentioned in the very title post, my issue with nepotism is not just confined to Bollywood, I see it in other realms of scoiety too, well beyond the films.

And on RR and his successes in recent years – Just as you claim that Hrithik hasn’t danced as good in non-Rakesh films, one can also turn around and ask the question “Has Rakesh been able to make anyone else dance as well (as Hrithik does) in his other movies?” If you see rakesh roshan all over KMG and Kriish, I cann’t possibly see KMG and Kriish without Hrithik either. They compliment each other in a major way. It’s true that.. RR’s launch of his son was a great success, but at the same time you have to admit too that KNPH wasn’t all that great of a film.. and one cann’t really say that the same film would have worked with any other star either. Do you really think that KNPH would have become the runaway hit it was with a Fardeen or Zayed as well? Can you confidently say that Abhi and Ranbir would have been equally successful doing KMG and Kriish? As I have said earlier, there’s a big difference between Rakesh Roshan pre-Hrithik and the one post-Hrithik. His 3-film success with Hrithik is way more than what he achieved in his first dozen movies. And when you look over the succeses now, it’s easy to say that Hrithik had the best director to launch him but 9 years ago, who really envisioned that RR could make 3 back-to-back blockbusters with his next 3 movies, let alone any of them being aliens and superheros.

So, you’ve seen Aa ab laut chalein… do you think that movie would have worked had Rishi directed his son instead of Akshaye Khanna? Or for that matter, if Khalid Mohammad starts casting his son in his movies hereafter, he’ll become the next ManMohan Desai?

RAKA 15 October 2009
03:37:24 pm

Hrithik danced best in Dhoom 2. He looked best in dhoom 2 and jodhaa akbar. Papa roshan must have learnt something from these two movies and may do better in kites.
the gay dancing in krrish and koi mil gaya sucked.

imgr8 15 October 2009
03:48:23 pm

First of all, RK didnt sign his second movie until after the Saawariya promos had started airing.
Two, tell me is Pankaj Kapoor a bigger name then a Nitin Mukesh? If yes, then why was Neil Mukesh signed by YRF right after his first release while Shahid had to wait for so many years to get in?
Three, you yourself said its not RK’s fault that he has a Kapoor surname. What can he do if the media sees a ray of hope in someone and decides to go ballistic over it? Wasnt Shahid praised to no ends for Kaminey or Abhay Deol for Dev D, even Prateik Babbar is getting movies after his two bit role in Jaane tu. Why are you being so biased and not giving him any attention? and why were there no posts on the lines of Hrithik vs Imran Khan when that released?
Four, there was no hype before KNPH promos started airing for Hritik, people just knew that he was being launched in the same year as Abhishek and that Kareena hasd opted out of the movie after shooting for it for a few days because RR was focusing more on his son and the actress had a minimal role. But when the promos aired, the music was a rage. The movie showed every desired aspect of a hero, from action to comedy to romance to dance, it was a complete package with Hrithik holding the center stage. Its ultimately the package that has to appeal to the audience and in KNPH everything fell in place for the Roshans. HR was no doubt perfectly cast and did complete justice to the movie. To ask if an Abhi or RK could have done the same, we will have to go back to 2000, put them in the same movie, change it a bit to suit their physicality and style and then re-release it to get the answer. JP Dutta had a story and he cast Abhi and Kareena in it, while KNPH was developed around Hrithik. There’s a difference in that. It doesnt matter though, either way your end product should work. And since you mentioned Akshaye Khanna, he is a star son too, was launched with much fanfare in Himalaya Putra but what happened? Saif Ali Khan, came, fizzled out, came back again. Now is his second innings due to his connection with Sharmila or his talent and hardwork? Why couldnt a Puru Rajkumar get any work after Bal Brahmachari? Ok lets forget the starsons, do you see a Sharman Joshi carrying a KNPH on his shoulders? or Shiney Ahuja or Randeep Hooda or Kunal Khemu or KK or Ranvir Shorey or Rahul Bose or Madhavan? Actually this reminds me of Madhavan, brilliant actor, started his career on Tv and graduated to movies. He was really good in Ramji Londonwale, but can he do a Wake Up Sid? Kunal Khemu had 99 and Jai Veeru this year, both decent movies but didnt work at the BO? Is it RK’s fault that they didnt? If you say its coz of the hype that is built around these movies, then there are loads of hyped movies that dont work at the BO. You keep claiming that you are not anti-RK and that you havent seen any of his movies, then how can you say that all the praise and attention that is being showered on RK is undeserved and that he falls in the same category as Abhishek? He could be genuinely talented too, right? A Rajiv Kapoor fizzled out after a few movies, Aditya Kapoor still keeps making movies every few years, do you even know the names of those movies? Kareena survived because she was gorgeous, could act and had hardly any competition. Who was her competitor? Amisha Patel? So dont blame it on the surname only.

RAKA 15 October 2009
04:04:19 pm

what happened to Akshaye Khanna?

the bloke went bald and media dont like baldness!

leaving aside fan-defenses, such criticism about nepotism is rather a misfit in a place like NG which is a kingdom of randon fandom.

moral of the story – hrithik/abhishek/RK = the ultimate 3 idiots … hirani is dumb to letgo of such perfect casting.

imgr8 15 October 2009
04:14:30 pm

and not Aamir/Salman/SRK who act like teens even in their 40s?

btw werent Aamir and Salman starsons as well? so was Anil Kapoor and Sanjay Dutt, heck even Govinda’s father worked in the film industry as well.

imgr8 15 October 2009
04:53:49 pm

And if this topic is not about starsons and specifically about Bachchan and Kapoors, are the producers dumb to keep making movies with them if they know that they cant deliver and the audience is going to hand them a flop? Or are you claiming that the media conditions the audience’s brain to like the Kapoors and the Bachchans. Because either way the argument doesn’t hold. Both of them have their flops and successes.

If your displeasure stems from the media claiming them to be the “future” superstars (note the use of the word “future” which means not there yet but have potential), producers believing that and signing them for movies and taking the opportunity away from some other newbies, then again it doesnt hold. Because there are about a 1000 movies made in India every year, these two people do maybe 5-6 max, there’s plenty of opportunity for others to hog the print space and screen time and movies to lay their claim on the “supposed” throne.

Film making is ultimately a business, you have to show profits to remain in the business. These starkids come with a brand-name which gives the producers some security, as in, they dont have to waste money on making their product known (the first time) and theirs a curiosity factor. Add to it some decent promos and good music and you have a nice setup for a good opening but after the first show it depends on the movie as a whole, not an actor or director or music director. After the first movie, these “starkids” have their own name. RK had a flop with Saawariya, but he was still praised. Why? coz he was a Kapoor? What was Karisma ridiculed when she debuted? Now you are going to say but she still hung in there for so many years coz of her surname. Yeah, doing what ? and which big director signed her?

There have been others who made a big name when they came, Manoj Bajpai, Ashutosh Rana, Vivek Oberoi (starson) but ??? I am not making a case for Abhishek here, just dont take RK’s name in the same sentence with him. And you still havent changed the spelling of his name.

RAKA 15 October 2009
05:05:19 pm

considering the media favoritism for ranvir (assuming all these gushing would have been if he was from the kapoor family) – he will be compared and linked with abhishek – like it or not.

the only way to overcome such advantage/disadvantage is to deliver some solo hits and big grosses.

after that we can club ranvir with hrithik and continue the criticism.

Doga 15 October 2009
05:12:12 pm

Great points Img8.

There is no way to put RK right now in the same category of Abhi.

3 films vs 30+ films, come on.

Lets see what the future has in store.

More than anything else, even if one is to believe that Abhi gets 100% movies because of Big B(he surely must have got some of them because of Big B), the thing here to note is still the success of the movie is not guaranteed, is it and thus is not the stardom of the star.

Those who succeed are superstars irrespective of background(its not as if every starson has become superstar, on the other had i think very less have been even successfull).

There is a very long list of flop starsons.

pardesi 15 October 2009
06:25:38 pm

Kumar Gaurav!!!!! And he even had a blockbuster opening to his career. Mithun was the hero of the single screens, Mimoh is nothing.

Giddh 16 October 2009
01:57:53 pm

BTW who is Ranvir?

S T R E E T 16 October 2009
03:53:28 pm

“Why are you being so biased and not giving him any attention? and why were there no posts on the lines of Hrithik vs Imran Khan when that released?”

How am I being biased here? Hrithik and Imran fall under the same category. They both had some kind of connections to the industry (as do 99% of the other actors) which gives them the “access” advantage. Abhishek, Ranbir, Kareena et al.. form a separate group.. They not only have the advantage of easy access, but they are seen as “natural successors” and heirs to the Bolly kingdom.
Why is this so hard to understand for some you? or is it a matter of just not willing to accept? Do you seriously not beleive that a major section of the media and the audience want to see jnr Bachchan and jnr Kapoor to succeed just because of their lineage? Whether they earn the success or if they’re actually skilled aside.. I am not questioning that. The issue here is of nepotism and it’s a very obvious one but some Rk “fans” just don’t wanna admit to it.

And one more thing about RR and his launch vehicle for Hrithik. Why are you guys making it sound as if .. a director wouldn’t care about his movie being a hit or flop unless his son’s in the movie. And the claim of KNPH being a movie made around Hrithik vs Refugee/Saawaria being made with the movies put ahead of the stars in it.. would hold any weight only had KNPH flopped and but people noticing Hrithik. but that wasn’t the case.. KNPH the movie was genuinely liked which means that Rakesh roshan all along made every effort to get the movie right first. In fact in case of Refugee and Saawariya .. it’s the movies that failed but apparently (as you all calim) the actors and tehir roles stood out… which leads one to say that the directors were too busy showcasing the “stars” while the movies slipped out of their hand. I don’t think KNPH really went out of his way to show off Hrithik.. at least not any more than the movie required it to do.
Actually, in some of his other movies, for e.g. Fiza, the director went on and increased his role showing off Hrithik’s star moments when teh cripts required none of it. Another e.g. that comes to mind is Gowariker with his elephant scene in JA. You wont expect such scenes in a Gowariker film.. but he succumbed to it with Hrithik.

You must be logged in to post a comment.

S T R E E T

Related Posts

There Are 84 Responses So Far. »

Leave a Reply