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I do not usually delve into affairs of the box office. But one has to admit that numbers are real data and provide empirical proof. Inspired by some recent discussions, I did a little analysis of UTV and YRF – and came to some conclusions. First the data:
1. The films produced by Ronnie Screwvala were used as the UTV produced films, and I relied on Ronnie’s IMDb filmography with assistance from other sources (my other sources were Hardik and Doga in the SB).
2. The films produced by Aditya Chopra were used as the YRF produced films, again based on memory, and IMDb filmography.
3. Films distributed by either UTV or YRF were left out – although films like RACE and Taxi 9211 fall into a grey area where they were apparently sold to UTV – but since IMDb listed UTV as producers I included such films.
4. The nett gross and distributors shares were based on BOI numbers, as were the verdicts, overseas gross, and overseas verdicts.
5. BOI lists the overseas gross of only the top films (their list ends at 90 films) so I went to Boxofficemojo for some numbers.
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Raj
I dont deny Dhoni has improved his wicket-keeping but he has lots of grounds left to be covered.When you look ...
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Housefull has a 'Pirates of the Caribbean' connection
A lot is heard and said about monkey business. Mostly referred to ...
Fox bought MNIK for 98 crores for all rights exept music rights.
Its known all along since last six moths.
Anyway lets ...
ok mr. housefullatbb since you ae so well-versed on the numbers, maybe you could also tell me where you got ...
which is more funny?
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DDDhit- Don't worry MNIK has recovered its money from Indonesia, Yeman etc. LOL !!! 
I hope you are feeling better
A. R. Rahman’s Chicago gig tickets sell for $1,050 each 
Kya Rocky sir...bahot neend aa rahi hai? :)
Chalo chodo iss baat ko we shud better agree to disagree on this ...
3 Belds 27 April 2009
12:39:55 am
this is an excellent and detailed analysis. the only thing i disagree with is one of the conclusions reached – aka – yashraj doesnt need any help/money or whatever in that gist. The point is not about whether yrf is doing ok financially but i think it is of financial mismanagement
i think the last 2 to 3 years have been the biggest bonanzas for bollywood as the market has been real hot. In this market – being the biggest production house and the biggest brand – just eking out a profit is just not enough. i think they have to repackage the products they are selling and they definitely need product marketing help – in terms of product placement and product distribution
but all the same – great stuff neelu – hope to see more stuff like this
rudresh 27 April 2009
12:43:21 am
good comparison Neelu.
YRF has one blockbuster since last three years.
But where UTV scores is that since 2006 you will find hardly any flop by them. Another thing is that their movies apart from BO success were critical success also. YRF is not outscored by UTV , but still UTV is marching ahead and YRF is movie downhill.
Their Flops in last year like Tashan etc are not just flops, they are disasters.
rudresh 27 April 2009
12:45:15 am
Categrozing the Hits as ALBB, BB, SuperHIts and HIts where as Flops as just flop does not provide the real picture
neelu 27 April 2009
12:50:38 am
Rudresh – I think BOI lists disasters as such, and in their book Tashan is NOT a disaster. A movie that made 35 cr (India + overseas) in theatrical revenues cannot be a disaster.
CDI and RNBDJ are both BB at BOI.
Here is the issue – if you recover money on even the films listed as flops, because of overseas collections, and you make profits of 30 cr plus on a BB every year – then is that better or is it better to have average earnings in 2-5 cr films?
About critical success – we can debate that as much as we want, but this discussion is about YRF success as a production house compared to UTV.
rudresh 27 April 2009
01:00:07 am
Director breaks family tradition as it doesn’t make business sense any longer.
Karan Johar has broken Dharma Productions’ decades long tradition of distributing their films through Yash Raj Films.
In a shocking development, Karan has sold the rights of his next two films Wake Up Sid and Rensil D’Silva’s untitled film to UTV for a whopping Rs60 crores.
Even the distribution rights for the film being directed by Karan, My Name Is Khan, is up for grabs.
KJo has explained his tie-up with the phenomenally successful UTV as a natural result of his relationship with UTV honcho Ronnie Screwvala.
He says, “Our priorities are similar. First cinema, then the business of cinema. We both understand that it’s finally about business. UTV has made niche cinema into a mainstream event. Their sense of publicity and marketing is amazing.”
Dharma Productions which, until now, has often worked as a family concern, has off late started to take a more corporate approach to the business of filmmaking.
Karan says, “We’ve gone more by emotion than practicality. Maybe we need to get more business-like in our dealings. I feel a certain warmth towards Ronnie which, compounded with his business sense, will help us grow.”
Looks like recession is making everyone take a good hard look at the business of creating movies.
http://www.masala.com/10839-kj.....-raj-films
rudresh 27 April 2009
01:01:15 am
Neelu, thats where I think UTV is scoring over YRF.
neelu 27 April 2009
01:05:54 am
To add to the previous point, actually YRF have had a BB each year for the last 3 years – Dhoom 2 (2006), CDI (2007), and RNBDJ (2008). This could be a year without one!
Karan HAS gone to UTV for distribution, but again I am discussing production, and not distribution business. I think YRF need marketing retooling, they do not market anything as well or as much as they should. Red Chillies goes to EROS, other go elsewhere. The profit YRF make with distribution is not even part of this discussion. Maybe someone better equipped to analyze it should take it on.
neelu 27 April 2009
01:08:09 am
Rudresh – you do not find it remarkable that for all the UTV hype we hear, they have only managed to get hits with the big stars (while YRF has managed BBs), that their niche films are average at best at the BO, and that they have no foothold in the overseas market?
manoj16_391 27 April 2009
01:43:01 am
Fortune favours the brave.That’s what one can say about UTV.From RDB to Dev D,most of the films have recovered their costs.While it is true that small films like A wednesday,WTS ,fashion have more chances of recovering their money and in this era of multiplexes ,recovering such modest costs is no big deal.But the script has to touch the audience and it has to brought to the audiences notice and UTV succeedes at both these fronts .They know the importance of the 3 Ps in Markeing- product ,price and promotion.
The problem with YRF is that of late,their script sense has gone to the dogs and they have mismanaged their budget while riding on the coat-tails of big stars to rescue them.
manoj16_391 27 April 2009
02:10:25 am
Neelu,
Agreed that UTV has only managed hits with big stars as opposed to the BBs from yrf,but look at the kind of films both have produced for them.While UTV has produced RDB,swades and JA with Aamir,srk and Hrithik,YRF has produced Fanaa,D2 and RNBDJ with the same(CDI is an exception).
It is natural that a fanaa or D2 will cater more to the movie going audience than RDB or JA or swades.But UTV took the risk and it paid off.Even Swades in todays times would have been atleast an average.Also,Srk will be remembered more for Swades than for RNBDJ.Similarly Hrithik will be known more for JA than D2 down the line.
manoj16_391 27 April 2009
02:13:29 am
Neelu,
I dont see Swades in your list of UTV-produced movies ?
manoj16_391 27 April 2009
02:20:24 am
Neelu,
“UTV marketed Race, and JA and Delhi 6 very aggressively ”
I dont think JA was promoted “aggressively”.This was probably the only movie they didnt promote well.Perhaps,it was one of the reasons why JA took an avg opening.
manoj16_391 27 April 2009
02:34:55 am
Neelu,
Had UTV not delivered in big movies like JA and Race ,I would have agreed with you that YRF is ahead in terms of a lucrative production house.The trade insiders hardly care for recovery of films like A wednesday or Dev D or WTS.But since UTV could deliver in big movies along with the small ones while also maintaining the quality is something note-worthy .Eventually it has also started the debate as to who the #1 production house of India really is.
Brian Charles 27 April 2009
05:14:58 am
I have been a believer that Yashraj was never actually in real trouble, but once in 2007 i guess they were a total failure until CDI came.
SRK has been a big support system for Yashraj since the last decade. Take out Mohabatien,VZ,CDI,Rab ne and things wont be that rosy.
The main point is that Yashraj is somehow trying to do different cinema but most of the times they end up making starry movies and worse promote it as likewise.
neelu 27 April 2009
09:57:17 am
Manoj – yikes! I did forget Swades didn’t I?
A below average to flop by trade standards, it does not improve UTV’s performance in big and star centered films. The recent Delhi 6 says the same thing. If the trade does not care for small films then UTV’s performance is not one that earns them so much limelight. It is their involvement in niche films that does it. But if your entire niche films portfolio in a year earns less than a flop Tashan then what does that say?
I think the main point I came away with in my analysis was that while these big YR films are declared flops in India, when overseas is added they earn a tidy profit. Why would a production house change its approach if they never lose money on most films, and make BIG money on a few films? It is a business model that has worked really well for them so far. When they stop getting one or two big successes a year they will HAVE to change their model. But they may not be ready with the groundwork for that. I think their focus on younger stars in 2009, 2010 is some sort of preparation, but we have no idea how much this will succeed. If Ranbir or Shahid become big successes, then YR Films will continue on their current path. If not, then they will have a struggle for survival 2-3 years down the road. BUT TODAY, they are head and shoulders above the competition.
Brian Charles 27 April 2009
11:17:15 am
Neelu – 100% agree here.
Yashraj is doing pretty good right now, but if the tide is really changing and if they really have to make some adjustments as a production firm that point indeed will be tricky as they might not be totally ready as you said.
And yes they also need to find their next SRK, because even though SRK is ultra strong he will not be as prolific as the young guns can be as he is very busy nowadays.(He is already down to 1 movie a year).
rks 27 April 2009
03:15:46 pm
IMO YRF has been inconsistent after 2006. And their bargaining power with Multiplexes, has been considerably reduced after successive failures (Multiplex not genuflecting in case of Tashan even with Akshay). If you average the performance over last 4-5 years they are bound to look good. In last two years apart from two BB with SRK , I don’t see they have anything to show. If you look at broader picture their trajectory is negative. If you look at UTV they have been giving both critical and BO success on consistent basis and their graph looks upward inclined. It is still possible that in absolute sense YRF is ahead of UTV but if the way things continue someone in competition might catch up. The recent change of guard at CEO position is pointer, that all in not well at YRF!
neelu 27 April 2009
03:27:01 pm
RKS – I was not averaging over 4-5 years. There is a year by year table for the last 4 years too! For big successes UTV had 4 hits (with Aamir, Hritik, and Saif; plus a small hit with Naseer) and a semi-hit (Metro). In that same period YRF had 3 BBs (with Hritik and SRK) and two semi-hits (with Ranbir and Saif). So I think they are ahead even in a year-by-year comparison! In a privately held company what is a CEO change worth? Some guy we never heard of is replaced by another guy
rks 27 April 2009
04:27:55 pm
Neelu – with this, you need CEO. They might not be raising money through public issue but they must be raising money from other sources .
Time is ticking by
Bollywood’s balance sheet goes for a toss in 2008
neelu 27 April 2009
05:16:03 pm
How can I read beyond the first paragraph that starts at:
“MARKET, A GREAT LEVELLER “Ghajini” was the only hit late last year. Shah Rukh Khan’s “Billu” and Yashraj Chopra’s “Rab Ne Bana Di Jodi” didn’t do well despite stars. Producer Bobby Bedi reveals the inside story and claims recession is a boom time for budgeted filmmakers like Madhur Bhandarkar.”
BB is RNBDJ and Fashion is average – and Bobby Bedi seems like a moron to me if he does not know this as an insider. Everyone wants to be a talking head these days!
And here is what the second one says:
“Among the losers of the year, Yash Raj Films tops the list. Barring the Ranbir Kapoor, Bipasha Basu, Deepika Padukone and Minissha Lamba starrer Bachna Ae Haseeno, which did average business, none of its other five releases of the year could make the grade at the box-office. These include Laaga Chunari Mein Daag, Aaja Nachle, Tashan, Thoda Pyaar Thoda Magic and animation movie Roadside Romeo.
The poor box-office show of these movies cost Yash Raj dearly. Though the exact figure of the loss incurred by the banner is not available, many say it could be in the region of Rs.700 million. Even its latest production Rab Ne Bana Di Jodi has failed to bring cheer to the production house as the pace of the movie’s collections, after an encouraging start, has slowed down considerably.”
Real numbers do not lie, and media hype is mostly lies IMHO.
rks 27 April 2009
05:36:38 pm
Meltdown Hits Tinsel Town
RAJ 27 April 2009
10:49:13 pm
Bottomline of the above discussion..
YRF is finacially way ahead of its competitots including UTV…But similarly contentwise UTV is heads and shoukders ahead of its competitors..
YRFs’ balance sheet looks good only and only because of SRK ….It remains to be seen how they cope up without SRK doing any substantial number of movies with them in near future…
manoj16_391 28 April 2009
01:11:00 am
Neelu,
One cannot compare the collections of modest-budgeted films like A Wednesday or a WTS with that of Tashan or AN.One has to look at the ROI for each of those movies.While Tashan and AN could not recover their costs in the domestic markets,virtually every film of UTV(since 2008) has recovered its cost.
manoj16_391 28 April 2009
01:21:24 am
If YRF produces a movie worth Rs 100 and earns Rs 70 while UTV makes a movie worth Rs 10 and it earns Rs 20.
Of course,70>20,but who is the loser here?
manoj16_391 28 April 2009
01:32:20 am
I stand by my statement that trade insiders will be much more happy if a YRF-produced movie doubles its budget in BO collections because that would mean a profit of Rs 100 (using above example)as opposed to Rs 10 from UTV.But except for SRK-starrers ,that is not happening for YRF.
A C H I L L E S 28 April 2009
03:47:03 pm
The links from RKS makes more sense than this half baked post itself … YRF’s recent state of affairs is clear from the number of movies they are releasing this year – only two instead of 5 releases in the last few years … and the change of CEO does indicate some obvious things.
As for real numbers, they dont lie … but quoting BOI numbers is same as IBOS numbers … two agenda driven sites with hardly any ‘real numbers’ … for those who are going to throw a barrage of expletives and arguments against this, well real numbers for movies dont change after 2-3 years of release!
btw, UTV is also facing the flak after the debacle of delhi-6, but it still has the only hit movie of this year – Dev D.
As for RNBDJ its surprising to see the consistent negative media coverage.
neelu 28 April 2009
06:01:19 pm
@Manoj:
“If YRF produces a movie worth Rs 100 and earns Rs 70 while UTV makes a movie worth Rs 10 and it earns Rs 20.
Of course,70>20,but who is the loser here?”
Manoj can you tell me which YRF films actually lost money when all revenue was accounted for?
@ Achilles:
“The links from RKS makes more sense than this half baked post itself ”
“two agenda driven sites with hardly any ‘real numbers’ ”
I will wait for you to analyze all releases up to 1997 and then I can use your numbers! And I mean this in the most sincere way.
1. Negative media coverage does not change numbers. Thus many can call Jodha Akbar a BB but it is still a hit in terms of real numbers!
2. This is directed at Manoj – YRF can take a Hritik film and turn it into a BB success, while UTV makes a hit out of a Hritik film. Perhaps one can bring up genre and content etc. but then the case of CDI has to examined, a BB with a non-mainstream content.
3. As for flop films with big stars – both UTV and YRF are fully capable of doing that!
4. Yes YRF have two films that will be completed this year. Let us wait to see their outcome before pronouncing judgment. 2 successful films is better than 3 flops and 3 average films.
A C H I L L E S 28 April 2009
06:50:01 pm
Neelu – those articles make sense if one is willing to read between the lines to get the bigger picture and not to crucify the it for calling Ghajini a hit and RNBDJ a disappointment … its the author’s own view on a relative basis.
If we are to consider revenue from all sources then no film is a flop.
and a big prod house doesnt cut down the number of releases by half unless its in trouble.
neelu 28 April 2009
06:56:59 pm
“its the author’s own view on a relative basis.”
ROFL! And if that relative basis calls a blockbuster a disappointment then the bigger picture it projects is just worng and not worth wasting time over.
“If we are to consider revenue from all sources then no film is a flop.”
Now you are talking! That is the point I am making too. If no film is a flop for either production house, but one has blockbusters while the other has hits, ten we knoe who is ahead. It is that simple.
“a big prod house doesnt cut down the number of releases by half unless its in trouble.”
Like I said – let us see what the trouble is – time will tell. They are secretive even with their announcements, and have not even announced the Ranbir film with Shimit that is going on. So far in 2009 it seems more troublesome for UTV as I see no big success in their lineup.
A C H I L L E S 28 April 2009
08:12:01 pm
My sincere apology (to myself) for commenting on this thread!
neelu 28 April 2009
08:14:18 pm
I think the moderators can remove your comments – you just have to ask. They have been woefully unemployed of late.
manoj16_391 29 April 2009
01:34:46 am
Neelu,
Re: “Manoj can you tell me which YRF films actually lost money when all revenue was accounted for?”
Using the same source that you used viz.BOI,Tashan is given a flop verdict in both the domestic(28cr) and the overseas markets(7.25 cr) clearly indicating that it LOST money in both the markets.Same is the case of AN and other YRF-non-srk-starrers.
Re:”YRF can take a Hritik film …….CDI has to examined, a BB with a non-mainstream content. ”
The budget of CDI was less than half the budget of JA!This explains the BB verdict.If CDI had a budget in the range of JA ,it still would have earned the same as it did otherwise.CDI ,like JA,worked well with the urban-audiences and was not very well-received in the interiors.
Read this:
http://www.naachgaana.com/2008.....ckbusters/
Also CDI was not half as well-received as JA in the overseas.
Also since you have been talking all this while about “all revenue” ,the sum total/worlwide gross of CDI is nowhere near JA!