ps: QSQT discussion has moved to this thread

Link

http://www.telegraphindia.com/.....349703.jsp

LOL, talk about life providing ammo for NG debates!

NyKavi – that is my point exactly – even for those who were there these films had different kinds of impact. If we bring Taran and Komal in then we should be willing to accept their say on everything and not selectively.

LOL – we have all been caught red handed by neelu

When all is lost, play the Aamir fans card…sigh…I can’t be bothered to find more links now, all the writers of those pieces will be reduced to being called Aamir fans too

Anyway I’m out of this one. I feel I’m debating George Bush. I am the bigger fool for doing so. I nonetheless respond because I don’t want others reading this to get the wrong impression.

I guess the Ghajini history has started all these new ideas!

Anyway I said my piece plus Satyam’s added a few more articles.

And Q said it best. If the claim was that QSQT is considered significant “only on NG” well the claim is disproved.

“Its long unwieldy title led to the movie being popularly referred to by the acronym “QSQT”. This sparked off a fad of Hindi movies with long titles promoted by acronym substitutes: Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge (1995) as “DDLJ” & Hum Aapke Hain Kaun…! (1994) as “HAHK”. ”

Actually if you just google the keywords hit and the title of the film you’ll get countless sources calling it a big hit.

To comapre an outside view on that film and QSQT – how about the same source for both?

http://www.uiowa.edu/~incinema/dilwale.html

http://www.uiowa.edu/~incinema/qayamat.html

And this is brought up as we are saying what came before and its success is not germane to determining what inspired the later product.

For those who are belittling the contribution of EDKL – I say they were either not there or are arguing in bad faith and in a partisan manner.

“Aamir’s first movie in a lead role was Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak (1988). The movie marked directorial debut of Aamir’s cousin Mansoor Khan. It was a big hit of the late 80’s and it brought in a new trend of teenage romance.”

On a related note an India Today story from 1998 clearly indicating Aamir’s position even at the time and again singling out QSQT. So much for folks who think Aamir wasn’t one of the major stars in the 90s!

This from an India Today story on the eve of Lagaan:

http://www.india-today.com/ito.....ver2.shtml

A review. Try and read several reviews of QSQT online and gauge what the film meant in terms of industry dynamics, plenty highlight it. Here the reviewer says “introduced Indian filmgoers to two young actors who went on to become two of the biggest stars of their era – Aamir Khan and Juhi Chawla. It did more than that; it ended an era of violent, action-oriented films and launched the modern romance revival that propelled the careers of a number of actors with dashing hero appeal, like Aamir, Shah Rukh Khan, and Salman Khan – along with their heroines, like Juhi, Madhuri Dixit, and Kajol. For that reason, some observers draw the line between the “classic” and “modern” Hindi films at Qayamat se qayamat tak.”

Now note I am not agreeing with all of this text, just highlighting that many do indeed consider QSQT as a pivotal movie and a significant one of its time. The last sentence is something similar to what Satyam was referring to I guess when he said “Other star sons emerged during the Bachchan reign but not one was ever connected with anything new in terms of trends and so forth.”

Failed in the sense to emulate DDLJ

I must say that I find it appalling and downright comical that some here would actually question QSQT. Either one wasn’t around at the time, or one didn’t realize what was going on, or else one is speaking in bad faith for partisan reasons!

I suppose we’re soon going to run down the list and question other Aamir successes as well!

One can have debates about many matters but certain propositions start with such absurd premises that one feels like a mutt for even bothering to correct things!

This is the George Bush view of things! One says anything and everything and pretends this is reality.

On QSQT again, street says no-one talks about outside NG. 3 different sources all suggesting the significance of QSQT have been displayed – WIKI, timesofindia and that taran quote mentioning it JUST TODAY from trade perspective.

Now pull out something on “your” choices and we can have a discussion. Otherwise all your doing is debating with your knowledge whereas some have provided “additional” source information to evidence the claim QSQT is significant and a certain trend setter.

Ball is in your court!

When people say QSQT turned the tide, its because this movie was followed by the likes of MPK,Dil,DHKMN,DDLJ,and the countless other non-action romantic flicks of the 90s.

“Post QAYAMAT SE QAYAMAT TAK, I distinctly recall, the trade magazines were full of announcements of love stories. A similar bhed-chaal was noticed when MAINE PYAR KIYA re-wrote history. Almost every producer then was either keen on starting a love story or had already started one. Those were the days when 30/40 films were announced in any given week, with actors having 50/60/70 films on hand at any given time, doling out dates to producers as if they were distributing prasad.”

Thats just today…

Idea: SRK was just trying to be sweet. What could he have said? In fact, I think he nicely sidestepped from making any direct comments about the film by just saying his son enjoyed it. End of the matter. At least he wasn’t hypocritical to say ‘it was a great film!’ like a lot of people do at such premiere shows.

Aamir is of course the other extreme. He might have just blurted out the truth but then again, he was pretty diplomatic after seeing Sarkar Raj. If I’m not wrong, he said, ‘it was a good effort from Ramu’

Welcome trended reasonably well…

Another citation about CCTC – Akshay said that his son loved the movie and said that it was like cartoon film. Now one can deduce many things (both +ve and -ve) over here.

Did you see what Nikhil Advani said about the film in one of the interviews. He said, ‘China has Kung fu and we have songs, so why not bring both together and see what we can do with it’ This is the premise for a film!

And honestly, for all the trashings that 80’s get for being teh lowpoint in Hindi commercial cinema, it’s one of the best eras for women, as some of the best woman-oriented films were made.. some of the best female roles were written during the time.. and just as we had those female superstars in the commercial cinema, the era also saw the emergence of some of the best talents in parallel cinema – Shabana Azmi, Dimple Kabadia, Smita Patel and the then there were the 70’s actresses who didn’t really do much in that decade but got author-backed roles in the 80’s.. e.g. Rekha with Khoon Bhari Maang, Khoobsurat etc.

A.Shah

Akshay.. You think that Munna in Rangeela and QSQT the movie were teh talk of the town when they released.. but all indicators show that it wasn’t and nobody ever cared about. ATleast compared to the other Bigger romantic hits of teh time, it wasn’t even mentioned anywhere. And even today nobody, besides that TOI piece that happens to have a number of other movies perhaps critically acclaimed but hardly a s”stirrer” of any kind in its era. Put it this way.. Kabhi Haan Kabhi Naa often features amongst the critically acclaimed films of the 90s or amongst the best SrK performances.. but during its release, it was hardly a film that many throughout India EVEN KNEW OF.. 93-95 was all about Darr, Baazigar, KA and DDLJ…. and to an extent RBGG. to say, that KHKN started some kind of trend or was it a film that changed teh face of Bollywood, is reidiculous. Yes the film definitely halped SrK make a mark for himself as an actor..It was the film that won him his first Critics award at FIlmfare.. but that’s about it.

And yes Akshay, outside NG a film like MPK is discussed a lot more than QSQT is. I’d be surprised if as many people that watched MPK even know if a film by the name QSQT even exists.

A.Shah

IMO QSQT may not be the bigger hit, but it’s still discussed and talked about in countless places.

09 is going to be a real clincher in the sense MY NAME IS KHAN and 3 IDIOTS both release and will seal the deal to an extent as far as the Aamir/SRK argument is concerned. No doubt Johar is going for a critically acclaimed blockbuster ala CDI with SRK in a authorbacked role (i predicted a while back that SRK may start adopting another “persona” of sorts after CDI with his surname “Khan” being the key factor…looking forward to this immensley i hope Johar doens’t turn this into a preachy hamfest!

3 IDIOTS on the other hand has Aamir Khan coming off GHAJINI with a certain Hirani…..nuff said!

A.Shah

WIKI – “Love Story is a 1981 film directed by Rajendra Kumar. The film also stars Rajendra Kumar alongside his son Kumar Gaurav and Vijeta Pandit both making their film debuts. Vidya Sinha, Amjad Khan, Danny Denzongpa and Aruna Irani also appear in supporting roles. The music was composed by R. D. Burman with lyrics by Anand Bakshi. The film became a “blockbuster” at the box office.[1] This movie made Kumar Gaurav a ‘Star’ overnight.[2] Amit Kumar won the Filmfare Best Male Playback Award over another nominee, his father Kishore Kumar.”

83 – Hero…79cr and Betaab…61cr

WIKI – “Jackie Shroff played the lead role, also called “Jackie”, and achieved stardom overnight.

The lead was initially to be played by Sanjay Dutt, but Ghai changed his mind after witnessing Dutt in his drug phase during the shooting of Vidhaata, and gave the role to Shroff.”

WIKI – “Betaab (English: Impatient) is an Indian Bollywood movie released on August 5, 1983, directed by Rahul Rawail and produced by Bikram Sing Dahal. The film satars Sunny Deol and Amrita Singh in their debut roles. The film went on to be one of the biggest hits of the year.”

I can carry on for each film. Now read the “narrative” on QSQT. I will use WIKI because I consider it more knowledgable than Street will ever be.

81 – Love Story

83 – Hero…79cr and Betaab…61cr

84 – Tohfa…59cr and Soni Mahiwal…35cr

85 – Ram Teri …90cr, Pyaar Jhukta Nahin…50cr, Teri Meherbaniyan… 40cr, Saagar and Sanjog …30cr each

86 – 5 of the top 8 films include Nagina, Swarg Se Sundar, Ghar Sansar, Jaanbaaz and Dilwaala.

Apr1 88 – Pyaar Ka Mandir …39cr

Apr29 88 – QSQT …38cr

Nov 88 – Tezaab …64cr

89 – Maine Pyar kiya…103cr, Chandni…38cr, Chaalbaaz…27cr

Starting with Love STory in 81.. the number and magnitide of hits in romantic genre increase by every single year.. thanks mostly to the new stars’ debuts/early films.(Jackie, Sunny, Anil, Aamir, Salman and Govinda all start with romantic films) And though 87 is a lowly year (even for action) the trend continues 88 through to 90’sincreasing at the same rate as it was 83 to 86. So why does QSQT get all credit.. when it is amongst the smallest, if not THE smallest and most insignificant of a cluster of romantic hits that all followed each other in quick succession, within months of each other. Just as there’s those that argue that producers started making romantic films after the success of QSQT, a more likely scenario to counter that would be that due to the success of all those romantic hits in 85 and 86… the films that released 88-90 were mostly in that genre. Remember it’s the 80’s when film-making took much longer than it does today (or maybe not.. most films even today take 1-2 years to release from date of announcement). So, films that came in 87 were mostly likely planned and started in 84 to early 85. While the ones started in response to the hits of 85 and 86 all saw release in 88 and 89.

To say that there was action and action dominating the industry throughout the 80’s… prior to QSQTs “success” and that because of that movie’s adjusted 38 cr gross Bollywood producers all pured their money into making romantic films….is simply one false ass statement that will find its takers only amongst certain section of NGites…

.. the same NGites that also claim that OSO is a rip-off.The funny thing is that another romantic , starring Madhuri of all, Pyaar ka Mandir released only 4 weeks before QSQT and made as much, was as big a hit.. and one cane totally makde a case for her being a bigger star than both Aamir and Juhi put together post-88. So much for QSQT and teh so-called Aamir phenomena.. hate to sound like a broket record .. ONLY ON NG!!!

Thanks for some sanity Q! Yet still the madness prevails, and there is refusal to acknowledge theft by running down the quality of other official remakes. Arre baba – chori nahin kee, rest is subjective judgment on whether you liked Don or OSO or Saathiya or not. To bring in the house ownership, kitchen sink and Timbuktoo, will force one to go to extramarital affairs, unacknowledged children etc etc. But what do I care about any of this when evaluating a film? Yes all stars did ripoff films – and now we should feel proud that they did! I am talking of this particular ripoff.

About MSFU – I too liked it and already mentioned that accepting the homage aspect is a bit uneasy. However it is acknowledged, and the source is NOT denigrated.

For those who think Ghajni was NOT ripping off Memento – maybe it would be better to not merely froth at the mouth but to actually detail why it was not? And yes, to me the fact that it was a shameless ripoff of the most superficial story line of Memento, and also a frame for frame remake of the Tamil version (which I had seen) – makes this one a film I did not like.

I don’t know about the film Chandni Chowk, but this thread is certainly headed towards alltime b-buster status…thanks Gabber!

The Manorama Six Feet Under case is a fascinating example, and potentially quite troubling. Here we had a film that was a “serious” film (i.e. no question that there was no spoofish element a la Om Shanti Om), and nor was it publicized as a remake (a la Don (2006) or the Hindi Ghajini). This film clearly owes a great deal to Chinatown, and early on in the film the protagonist is shown watching that very film. This by itself does not in my view innoculate the filmmaker against the charge of plagiarism, because everything else in the film is pretty “straight”; I don’t think the filmmakers can “get out of it” by openly acknowledging their plagiarism (also, no reason we should be more forgiving of the unoriginality of those who cleverly hint at their indebtedness versus the Nadeem Shravans of the world); Manorama Six Feet Under doesn’t “do” anything with this acknowledgment, once the acknowledgment is “out of the way” it proceeds as per usual…

I have a new one — SRK bungalow is over disputed property in Bombay.. the paperwork was this is still a mess.. he got it through connections but the land itself remains ‘contested’.. no one’s likely to bother him any time soon over this but a govt can apply pressure whenever it wants to.. so let’s give SRK less credit than Aamir? Since there is no such legal issue with the latter’s property! LOL!

“So, to criticise a film or put a film down on that basis is rather churlish and disingenuous. And, sometimes ideologically dishonest.I dont think any star or their fans are that ‘pure’.”

Oh yes? Like you are doing for Don or OSO? “Look in the Mirror boy!” Sorry no offense to you, I am in music “quoting” mode – and that is from my favorite Rock opera Tommy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqVV4GSYrNM&feature=related

And Shake Shake Senora!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

*[I don't know who Belafonte is, since I know virtually no music that isn't desi music. A good friend always plays a drinking game with me, where he'll ask me if I have heard of ridiculously famous song/artiste/group: 90% of the time I have not.]

1. “Firstly, denigration of original source material is not a legally cognizable offense.” No, of course it is not, but when doen to defend plagiarism it becomes somewhat morally reprehensible in my book. As in – no I did not copy it, and what is the big deal it was bad/incomprehensible anyway.

2. Acknowledging the source and not relying on it too heavily comes under the term homage in my book – thus the protagonist in MSFU watching Chinatown on TV is in that realm – though a little too close to the source.

3. Remaking something you have rights to, or have acquired rights for is perfectly fine, though may be considered lazy unless the material is thoroughly reworked. Then the question is – what originality do you bring to the table? One could argue that Murugadoss had “rights” (though questionable as the original itself is plagiarized) but what was the originality he brought to the table in the Hindi Ghajini?

4. Adapting classic literature is outside the copyright realm. How long do copyrights last for anyway? Thus all of Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens etc. are available to all to adapt. Bhansali adapted Dostoyevsky’s White Nights in Saawariya (though with a lot less success than the Italian adaptation with Marcello).

5. For modern literature/writing rights have to be acquired – for instance Chetan Bhagat’s One Night at a Call Center or even the 3 Idiots source. In fact we hear that 3 Idiots is quite a departure from the book, but would they dare to use any material from there without rights? One would say not – because the author is Indian and they would be tied up in a legal battle.

In fact I tend to prefer the intellectual laziness of remaking your own material (Mahesh Bhatt has been making hay on the Parveen Babi story for a few films) because hwo is it different from the intellectual laziness of ripping off? And it is at the very least honest. And if one is not able to generate material then I vastly prefer adapting classics over remaking your own material. As the world gets more and more globalized we become more aware of ripoffs and indeed the world becomes aware of our ripoffs and that is a bad stats for Indian cinema to be in. Yes – that goes for music too.

Firstly, denigration of original source material is not a legally cognizable offense. In fact it is constitutionally protected speech, under both american and indian law as far as I know. Even a re-maker or a plagiarist has the right to say that the original sucks. [One can hold him legally accountable for the plagiarism, NOT for denigration of original source material -- absent some agreement between the relevant parties pursuant to which one agreed NOT to denigrate the source]. i.e. one can say that the person who is denigrating the original source (assuming that is what was happening; here if I recall correctly Aamir was suggesting that HE didn’t understand the film, i.e. my sense was he was suggesting “mere sar ke oopar se guzar gayee”, NOT “hum original ko improve kar rahe hain”; but that’s a separate discussion) is dumb, ungracious, an asshole, even — but it makes no legal difference. Stated differently, you are not allowed to remake a film just because you happen to adore it. Whether one adores it, wishes to improve it, update it, whatever, makes no difference.

Back to the main point at hand, different issues are being lumped together. The LEGAL issue is being lumped with an ETHICAL and/or an AESTHETIC one. Let me illustrate: Saathiya is an official remake, and Dayavan an unofficial one. The difference here is that the original has not been compensated/acknowledged in one instance, and has been in the other. In both cases, the charge that the remaker is unoriginal, a copycat, and derivative, stands (in one case, he stands on LEGALLY firm ground in that no one can sue him, but that has no bearing on whether or not his work is derivative and un-original. It surely is in either case, and hence typically — if the remake is “straight” — one is unlikely to get as much credit for this sort of film than an “original” one).

A separate instance is where the rip-off is acknowledged. This complicates things a bit: Dayavan was not an official remake, BUT Firoz Khan never hid the fact that it was a remake; this was well-publicized at the time (and back in those days intellectual property protections were very weak, so no-one bothered to sue each other in the film industry based on this sort of thing). Whatever the LEGAL merits, this seems to me a different sort of thing from the likes of Anu Malik, Nadeem-Shravan, who not only ripped off but blatantly lied and/or misrepresented/allowed the public to believe that their work was original. The moral distinction is obvious (aesthetically, of course, there is no distinction, as both Firoz Khan and the music composers in question showed themselves to be unoriginal and unimaginative).

A third category is the chap who remakes his own stuff in various languages. Assuming he/she has the rights to do so, there is no LEGAL issue here; nor can one say he is being derivative, as it is his/her own work (the classic example is Priyadarshan; although it is a separate question whether the director has the right to remake stuff WRITTEN by others in the original languages; do they get credit in the remade versions? I do not know). Assuming no-one (e.g. the scriptwriter of the original) is being cheated, left out, perhaps the most one can say of this sort of re-maker is that he/she is lazy and complacent.

Obviously, to the extent that the remake is not “straight”, one gets more marks for originality than one otherwise would. Thus “Don (2006)” is more “original” than “Saathiya”; the latter is an official remake, but that just means Mani can’t sue Shaad Ali — it has no bearing on what Shaad has brought to the table that is “new.” I am led to believe that “The Departed” is not just a scene-by-scene remake of the Hong Kong films on which it is based, but someone here who has seen both will have to comment (satyam I believe has, but I believe there are others on NG who have seen the original films as well).

Aside: the practical reality is that “adaptations” of books, other texts, etc. are treated differently. One can debate why this is so, and whether or not it ought to be so, but no-one would ever accuse the “adapter” of Umraojaan, Hamlet, or Pride & Pejudice, of “plagiarism.” [This isn't a legal question, I am merely saying that in society the category is a different one for this sort of thing. If I accused Kenneth Branagh of being a "plagiarist" people would think I was crazy]. Surely the fact that the medium is different (book vs. cinema; theater vs. film) has a lot to do with the difference in perception]. But legally even this wouldn’t make a difference: IF the copyright is valid, then one cannot “adapt” absent permission…

Finally, there is the question of the bad film, which isn’t really an ethical question as I see it but simply a function of how much enjoyment I derive from a film. Thus Dharmatma and Aatank Hi Aatank and Sarkar are all re-makes of the Godfather. But unquestionably there is more that is original in Sarkar than in the other two. I without any hesitation will say that I vastly prefer Dharmatma to Aatank Hi Aatank.

There is no doubt that the original Don is not at all technically comparable to the remake. Don in 1977 was cutting edge for its day back then. Don in 2006 was cutting edge as well for its day. The diff was in the performances only, and also the butchered Khaike Paan. Pls dont ever come back and tell me that you preferred the new version to the one immortalised by Kishore Kumar!

Darr,Bazzigarr,JJWS,DHKMN entertained …Thats the bottomline…

Spoofs, homages, adaptations and official remakes DO NOT qualify as thefts. The others do – and yes all have had their share – but none have denigratde their source material. I refer people to Aamir’s vlog on Memento. I thought the resident lawyer would appreciate that these terms have legal meanings too.

I am in any case never bothered just by the idea of a remake. It’s all a question of whether a film works or not. If it doesn’t remake or not seems immaterial and vice versa. Of course sometimes very canonical films are attempted to cash in as Jay says. These attempts are misplaced. One is for example unlikely to be able to reinterpret Sholay in any valuable sense. The task is just too great and would require a series of improbabilities in terms of talent assembled etc.

But if people think Aamir has made 64 crores in an initial or more than 100 crores in terms of gross simply because he remade first off these people should inform Boney Kapoor immediately whose remakes combined don’t net 64 crores! Secondly these people should advise their favorite stars to remake anything they like and ‘cash in’! The last time I checked Don as a remake couldn’t match even as a relatively successful film any of SRK other significant successes in this decade! So SRK actually under-performed with the remake of a very iconic, classic Bachchan film where Aamir with a Tamil remake has made way more than the original ever did. In fact he’s done a Sivaji here with the remake. LOL!

Incidentally no one beats Hollywood when it comes to remaking films their own films! And a lot from elsewhere also!

Qalandar, Vijay was always a very appalling remake precisely for that reason! Yash Chopra wasn’t doing well at the time and got rather desperate.

Dil Hai Ke Maanta Nahin again holds its own against Chori chori. Of course the latter is a much loved classic with that legendary screen pair and that extraordinary soundtrack and so forth. But it’s not a Bachchan deal where the script or the lead star is so unique. I am actually not that great a fan of It Happened One Night either. I love Capra at many points. This isn’t one of them.

Spare a thought for Tamil superstar Vijay: virtually every one of his successful films ia a remake. And (it gets better) a disproportionate number are remakes of Mahesh Babu’s Telugu successes LOL!

And then there’s Don — remade as Billa with Rajnikanth; and when Farhan Akhtar remade the Hindi Don; Ajith decided to follow suit with a remake of Billa. Hamaare paas even the concept of remaking original nahin hai

The best remake I have enjoyed in hindi cinema is Kaante. Man that film rocked…Manjreker had me in spits in that film.

Obviously one prefers originality…btw you can add Billu Barber to SRK’s list. Bhool Bhulaiyaa comes to mind. Every actor’s probably gone through the routine of remakes.

Unfortunately Aamir picked the blockbuster material one

What always amuses me about such arguments is the extent to which the people making them fail to take account of the obvious? Shouldn’t one at least be a little thorough?!

and you’re right, no one’s defending Aamir or anyone else. of course I don’t consider ‘remake’ to automatically be the kind of loaded word it often seems to become here (for example De Niro’s Cape Fear is also a remake!). But if one is using this as a negative to attack stars one doesn’t like then one better be accounting for the remakes of stars one supports!

And lets not forget that the last bwood movie to be nominated was an “original” story by the name of Lagaan

Seriously, I will not defend the accusation of Aamir starring in remakes/homages/influenced movies etc. But so is every other star in bwood! If Bwood had churned out originals, we would have a SDM every year.

In this regard it’s amusing to sift through many opinions about Bollywood history here. One can immediately separate those who know their stuff from those who’ve seen some old films from every era and think they know everything. Perhaps they know enough to hoodwink a few but there are thankfully some here who know the relevant histories.

http://www.naachgaana.com/2009.....ent-162983

First off romance was dead and lost more or less in the post Rajesh Khanna period, notwithstanding superhits like Bobby (released the same year as Zanjeer), Love Story (1981), EDKL (also ‘81). One could perhaps throw in Rishi’s Laila Majnu from the 70s as well or even a small film like Julie. But really romance took a beating in this entire period. What’s interesting about Love Story and EDKL is that both released in the very same year and yet so definite was the Bachchan onslaught that nothing much happened to this genre despite the success of these two films. Kumar Gaurav became an overnight star but then fizzled out. Every one of his films after Love Story flopped. Kamal tried a number of genres but couldn’t (unsurprisingly) get it going in Bombay.

So the idea that seven years after EDKL released QSQT was somehow following in its wake is a little bizarre! There couldn’t be two directors more different in their sensibilities than K Balachander and Mansoor Khan!

Now Sadma released in ‘83 and was a very moderate kind of success. Barely scraped the top 20 that year.

There is no connection, NONE WHATSOEVER, between EDKL and QSQT even in a very limited sense. The idea that both films end in tragedies and that both are romances would put only a million other films in that group! Mansoor Khan actually shot two endings for QSQT (one was a happy one) and then went with the tragic ending because he thought it made the film more effective.

The entire tone, narrative, sense of drama et al of EDKL (a film I have a weakness for despite some really crude elements to the narrative) are a world removed from the near-minimalistic universe of QSQT (especially in the context of 80s cinema).

Let’s get into the each film’s central opposition. QSQT relies on an opposition within families who have the same social standing, class/caste orientation and so forth. What creates the crisis of the story is a death. And a death tied to notions of ‘defilement’. A murder then follows. There is an entire history of violence that foreordains the fate of the future lovers.

In EDKL there is no such history. Here we see ethnic tension. The Maharashtrian v the Southern (potent in the post-Shiv Sena period.. the Sena started off its politics persecuting migrant Tamil labor). This also doubles as a Brahmin (Tamilian)/non Brahmin (Maharashtrian) opposition and further overlaid with language quarrels (the hero does not speak much Hindi… interestingly we’ve traveled quite a distance even since then.. today Marathi/Hindi could itself be the subject of such a film). The crisis of this film is therefore based in identity politics. QSQT is a much more masala film in minimalist and for the times very refined veneer.

I am a great fan of QSQT and I find EDKL (despite my strong reservations about some aspects of the film) a great guilty pleasure.

I have gone into some detail here in terms of timelines, the details of each film and so forth because the idea that one film influenced the other is plainly false as I see it. QSQT was certainly considered a kind of new beginning when it released.

There is a desperation with which certain folks try to ‘rewrite’ Aamir’s films. Post-Ghajini the theme that has emerged is ‘remake’. Let’s call as many of Aamir’s films remakes as possible! I wonder if the supporters of Devdas, Don and OSO have a leg to stand on even in this regard (ILG quite rightly notes the transposition of A Kiss before Dying into Baazigar at the very beginning of SRK’s career!)!

On a related note Maro Charitra had the Telugu/Tamil opposition. In each case the boy was the foreigner (Tamilian to Telugu or Marathi).

QSQT was instrumental in giving fresh faces on screen with soulful music. Udit Narayan became an overnight sensation. Even till today “papa kehte hain” draws cheers when played at graduation ceremonies.

“Let the man be a saint, crooked or a pervert, the woman of India has always accepted him the way he is, but this one woman who comes from a rich background is full of ego and pride and because of this she doubts her husband’s character and comes across a crooked pervert man who because of his lust spoils innocent girls. She thinks this pervert man is a God and her husband an evil till she realized the truth and once again becomes a true Indian woman. Written by gavin@sunny_deol2009@yahoo.com”

perhaps I should say (speaking of films with little to no significance), seeing as this is an Indian film site, “Ghar Mein Ram Galee Mein Shyam“…

About Sadma – one would think that the lead couple dying would be the ultimate in sadness, but in Sadma the fact that one will forever live with the fact that his entire association with the woman was erased in her mind, is a totally different kind of emptiness. Kamal at that train station as Sri leaves on a train without giving him a backward glance – that is for me the ultimate in despair.

And I should have qualified the perfect gentleman bit to say “on NG” – on the SB is another story!

Thank you. Although one word, truly awesome in its significance and incredible in its power, suffices to dispel such notions:

Rimmi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qayamat_Se_Qayamat_Tak

http://movies.indiatimes.com/S.....urpg-5.cms

I am not overstating the importance of Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak; I am resisting attempts to downplay its importance without justification. Interesting that Times of India picked it for its list of 25 (like all lists one could critique this, the point is that this is hardly an “only on NG” moment when one of the country’s most prominent newspapers is picking it) as far back as 2005.

Because you saw why I said only on NG – and you chose to ignore the main issue – that of homage vs. copying but picked on the NG bit. That is baiting. When did I say it was uncivil? You are always a perfect gentleman, unlike many on this board!

@Jay – No that comment about the banner was not made in fun. But you can rewrite you intention now. Would it help if I said my “only on NG” comment was a joke too? More important – would you believe it? As for WIKI on QSQT – I am sure the EDKL people did not care enough to edit the WIKI. The difference – EDKL was a BB success and the trailblazer. The songs of EDKL were mesmerizing and one a National award winner – so I will make my own judgment about the music and ignore Farhan and Javed for now. And we all know about Sadma – at least those of us who watch old cinema do.

Aamir became an overnight “superstar” with QSQT…. great..did I read that right? Aamir a superstar in 1988.

Anyways.. I just dont get this whole QSQT thing. It wasn’t any different from some of the other films of its time… and it wasn’t nearly as successful as those other films mentioned. So how can it get be attributed with kickstarting some trend… Bollywood’s shift from masala action of the 70’s to the romantic dramas of the 90’s was a gradual one.. and a number of highly successful films can be creditted with pushing that wagon.. QSQT, for its love on NG, was too small and too insignificant a film to get much , if any, credit in the process.
If anything, the emergence of female “superstar” in the 80’s gets more credit.. forcing writers, and directors to make films that revolve around their characters.. or atleast give them substancial roles.. you couldn’t do that with action movies.. so that’s why all those acion love stories dominated the mid to late 80’s… untiil the 90’s when the Khan became heavyweight stars and Bollywood could make romatics revolving around male superstars who specialized in the romance genre.

The video itself

LOL – that was a joke not a jibe…next time I will put a disclaimer for you. The pictorials have been an ongoing issue – at least a year. Many know about it…I believe if I remember correctly they started putting them up alphabetically and stopped at “A” or “B” (I might be wrong) or something like that. Seriously speaking do you really think those pictorials are up there like that “intentionally”? I give Rohit and technicians more credit than that…less credit for not fixing it!

On QSQT here is a video talking about the music of the 60 years post Independance…both Farhan and Javed Akhtar speaking here. Note what they say on QSQT – not just the music but also the significance of the movie and the time it came. This is just one example.

Note, not too many fond memories of the 80’s for these two and many have said this is amongst one of the industry’s low points in terms of films and music. In Farhan’s own words “really the change in the 80’s happened with QSQT” … the music in his words was a “catalyst” for change of what happened in the 80’s vs the 90’s. Then watch Javed talk about the film itself.

This is not me saying what they are saying is the bible. But my own opinion on QSQT is very similar. Not just QSQT but also MPK which came a year later. Think after this two twin success, films like Aashiqui, Dil, DHKMN, Saajan arrived afterwards…and really the romance genre got a kick-start…

…simply, I echo Javed/Farhan’s sentiments on QSQT.

Wiki itself says “Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak is a landmark movie in the history of Indian Cinema. Its Filmfare Award-winning music, romantic storyline, and young actors shifted the momentum away from the violent and aging ethos that was prevalent in the films at the time. It also made melodious tunes once again popular over the 80’s trend of Disco and Breakdance influenced soundtracks which was launched by another landmark movie Qurbani in 1980. Indiatimes Movies ranked the movie amongst the Top 25 Must See Bollywood Films”

Again that very much echoes exactly what Farhan and Javed were getting at…and very much my opinion on QSQT and also MPK at the time. Both films broke loosely speaking industry norms and trends and might I add both films made overnight superstars of Aamir and Salman much like KNPH made of Hrithik.

I think I do have the intelligence to see why you use the “only on NG” reference: it seems to me that you use it instead of referring to certain people whom you actually intend to mean. My point was that by doing so one automatically ascribes some kind of hierarchy while absolving oneself of responsibility for the direction of NG. Since we are all equal members, I don’t see it as constructive.

Re: “I can see your wanting to not expose some people and to deliberately bait me instead.”

I object to this comment, because you are accusing me of bad faith here — i.e. according to you I am not actually disagreeing with what you said but am simply “deliberately bait[ing]” you. This is manifestly untrue: I simply object to the “only on NG” line of argument, am saying so openly and giving my reasons for it; and am doing so in a civil manner. Where is the “bait[ing]“?

So please feel free to draw a line – and let us see who all toe the line and stay on the side of honesty and reason, and who on the side of specious arguments and lack of logic.

NG is all of us – and when we portray some kind of “collective” wrong response then it needs to be called out! When people called Rohit on why the banner (NG’s pictorial face) was so heavily Bachchan focused and ignored completely some current and past icons – Jay was the first to throw a jibe at praying to the photos of GODS! If NG is a collective voice of all of cinema then that is an unwarranted and childish one to throw.

Enough from me on this.

“Again I re-iterate the “on NG” jibe is silly. Again those making the “jibe” are themselves then living in the same fantasy they claim NG to be. That could be termed as more foolish – why put oneself in that position?”

If we applied the above to politics, the world environmental situation, violence, etc etc – we would be lining up to be the first on any space colonization mission.

i.e. I don’t have the time or inclination to support every positive cause in the world or belittle every war/terrorist attack that takes place. My silence should not be a sign that I am “for” it or “against” it. Innocent until proven guilty is the law as far as I am concerned and you can’t call me a hypocrit for being silent.

I turn the same question around on you and say you have belittled and name called people yourself on the forum. Many others have. Sometimes I will too. No one person on the forum has consistently “called out” those crimes each time – so are we all hypocrits? Only rks as moderator will consistently “call out” and to put it clearly he has the power to do so!

Again I re-iterate the “on NG” jibe is silly. Again those making the “jibe” are themselves then living in the same fantasy they claim NG to be. That could be termed as more foolish – why put oneself in that position?

Like Qalander says – every member has the power to make NG what they want. Some call for more original writing, then do it. Some want jokes and fun and then do it. Street does it all the time he turns up here – “only on NG this will happen” etc…bla bla bla bla bla…if its only on NG – plain and simple why the heck you on here?!?!? Go back to reality whatever that maybe for you!

Also.. for most people outside India.. Bollywood starts and ends with SrK.. well at least it’s been like that for past decade and a half.

Completely different issue. Rather than calling out person X, why say “Oh dear, only on NG”? [I don't single you out; many others do this too. Of course they have every right to, I just don't see it as constructive, because it suggests, as I said above, that one is oneself somehow less a member of NG than whoever one is referring to; and/or simultaneously one absolves oneself of any responsibility for whatever is seen as "wrong" with NG. We and no one else have made NG whatever it is or isn't, and every member is an equal "stakeholder." The suggestion that somehow NG members are dominated by one point of view is simply wrong: one has only to look at every long discussion thread.]

Aamir is the best

anyway rapping of some here is much is better than so called raping of some dickheads

They have lost their balls to admit the truth about other actors…
They pretend to be intelligent but the truth is they are some foolish idiots out here…These are nothing but mentally malfunctioned individual with their inteliigence raped from both ends…

Foot Note::::This is not meant to all Aamir fans but for that of inteligent variety”

typical srk fan

generalization and abusing others

I agree to a large extendt…

Funily enough I do not find some Aamir gans other here at NG better than SRK fans either…It seems they are so mentally fucked by Aamir mania that they have lost their objectivity…

They have lost their balls to admit the truth about other actors…
They pretend to be intelligent but the truth is they are some foolish idiots out here…These are nothing but mentally malfunctioned individual with their inteliigence raped from both ends…

Foot Note::::This is not meant to all Aamir fans but for that of inteligent variety

I agree to a large extendt…

Funily enough I do not find some Aamir gans other here at NG better than SRK fans either…It seems they are so mentally fucked by Aamir mania that they have lost their objectivity…

They have lost their balls to admit the truth about other actors…
They pretend to be intelligent but the truth is they are some foolish idiots out here…These are nothing but mentally malfunctioned individual with their inteliigenve raped from both ends…

Foot Note::::This is not meant to all Aamir fans but for that of inteligent variety

“Only Sex and SRK Sells” comment was made by Neha Dhupia.

Great going in comparing the two, for credibility sakes. Another one of thos “Only @ NG” moments, alas

From 2005 Aamir has acted in 5 movies…Two Blockbustres and two Superhits and one avg ( If MP is not a flop in your Book0

The total BO collection of these 5 movies worldwide is 300 crores in India and Approx 105 crores overseas.That makes it 405 crores in 5 movies at an avg of 81 cr per movie..

Now lets compare with that with SRK…From 2005 he has acted in 6 movies…3 Blockbusters ,2 hits and one avg…

Total BO collection in India is 358 crores and overseas 183 crores.So total colection wordwide is 541 crores making it 90 crores per movie…

During this period Aamir has TZP and RDB as So called prestige hits where as SRK has CDI…

So even From 2005 ,i dont think Aamir in anyway surpassed SRK ….

But yes they are neck to neck on all counts…

The comment was made by Satyam, not yours truly.

A truer comment cannot be made. The Tezzab- QSQT craze was unmatchable in the late 80s.

“Justafan: I assume when people talk about remakes they either don’t know or desire to forget that OSO and Don are also, just perhaps, just maybe.. remakes!”

I thought that the discussion we had about homage, spoof vs. plagiarism would be here for members to see. So what is this if not deliberate dishonesty in all it implies about plagiarism vs. remakes (official) or spoofs/homages? Am I to understand that the member who made this comment is unaware of these implications?

Now if someone says they have no problems with thievery (be it first hand or second hand) then that is another issue.

I get tired of NG-members dissing NG itself. You too are a part of NG, and help make it whatever it is (as do I). This “only on NG” business has, as I’ve been saying for years, a bit tiresome and inaccurate, given that Street, you, johnnybrutal are as much NG as anyone else (the implicit assumption of these statements is that those one disagrees with are more “representative” of NG than oneself). So either you are including yourself among the ranks of dishonest, or are excluding yourself from the ranks of NG. Neither move is necessary.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=t3v-zYxFFvM

The partisans however are still at it trying to deny Aamir what pretty much the whole Hindi film universe is giving him! One shouldn’t be annoyed though. The partisans are more deserving of one’s contempt and disgust. Because no one’s that delusional. Which means it’s just about bad faith.

Street: doesn’t your writing offend you when you’re sober?!

Yup….very depressing indeed!!!!! On the other hand, SRK just scored big with OSO last year and it looked like RNBDJ, a tailor made SRK blockbuster in the making, would break that record. Instead, Ghajini just bulldozed it and everthing else making it the biggest grosser in Indian Cinema and is about to become the first movie to cross the 100 CR mark.

Let’s hope MNIK does not become another typical 80 CR grosser for SRK….the bar has been raised much much higher.

hey… I mean rip-offs when I say rip-offs.. we are talking of scene-to-scene copies… to the exten that he even tries to act like and imitate the original actors in them films..

lol… I love arguments that fail to prove much on facts and goes with “Beleive me… I know”. Just to counter that..yes I was too young to remember that.. but I did ask my cousins and all them go “QSQT….what QSQT?”.
And as I said earlier.. it wasn’t a film thing.. but a gradual change from action to romance.. and it may not have necessarily started with Love Story.. but not only all BO indicators but a look into the structure of most films thereby do show that the ball did start rolling with meomentum after the tremendous success of that film (which too was driven by youth alone). And as I said.. QSQT was not all that different from superior hits that preceded it (Hero, Betaab) or ones that followed it (MPK, Saajan)… where romance-action ratio and sequence in the film goes.. or for that matter the basic plot is concerned.

And BELEIVE ME… having surfed bollywood forums for a while.. only on NG have I come across the notion that QSQT was all that.

nothing personal against the ones who made those remarks… but I just couldn’t help it there.

Just as the term “only SrK and sex sells” was thrown around during 2002. Trust me if we gonna paraphrase every one of such comments and use them as gospels on BO talks.. then SrK will fill up books for you. Not to take anything away from the guy, but the media has made mountains of his success mounds all along. So, similarly, saying AMitabh #1 to 10 during his era.. makes little sense when you actually look into the numbers and the success of the movies. He didn’t have all that many more hits.. nor did his hits were all that bigger than the rest of stars of his era. Yes, he was ahead of the others, and quite convincingly so too, but pales in comparison to Khanna’s dominance during his superstar years.. and I can, if cared to, make a valid case for SrK dominance edging him as well, specially 95-2004 period and I’m sure if you have been long enough on NG then you prolly seen them posts too.

In the contrary Laggan cganged my life..It inspired me to waear dhotis instead of Trousers and use country made balls than Cricket balls.It also inspired me have sex with phirangis and use it for my publicity…

“”Aamir will not only be seen in history books, 20-30 years from now (or beyond), he’ll have whole chapters devoted to him. I suspect SRK would be the footnote in one of those chapters, a Rajendra Kumar of his generation, with absolutely no longevity.”

You are kidding right….If today a DDLJ and Laggan are played on TV channels …7/10 people would watch DDLJ against that of Laggan…Mark my word on this..it would be same even after 10 yeras and 209 years…

Same goes for RNBDJ and Lagan…

Longevioty is a perception and you have a absolutely wrong and misplaced perception about SRKs longevity…

Opening weekend: 25 Cr
Week 1: 35 Cr
Total: 55 Cr

As for those highest seling DVD news – one can find amny similar form other sources – and I believ none of them and am skeptical about NyKavi’s too!

http://www.televisionpoint.com/news2006/newsfullstory.php?id=1150539077
http://www.yashrajfilms.com/Ab.....ode=PRO002
“Infact, “Dhoom” has been the highest selling DVD/VCD title of all times in India ” LOL

Very much so. Just any nominated film in the foreign film category will get alot of eyeballs from cross over audiences.

And the above is just the Indian sales. I never cud get a figure for overseas sales, except a small sample. amazon.co.uk has sold almost 25000 DVDs of Lagaan. Im sure if we extrapolated that to all of US/UK and abroad, at least another 100,000 DVDs have been sold abroad.
Aside from this, Lagaan is also a very heavily rented DVD from the likes of blockbuster/netflix etc. An Oscar tag carries a lot of curiosity for crossover audiences too.