Chandni Chowk to China prediction thread – An All Time Blockbuster?

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389 | January 14, 2009 at 2:30 am | 3,417 views | NaachGaana Bol| Share

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With Akshay Kumar, 1300 prints, a Warner Brother release in over 30 countries including China, Deepika’s next offering, will CCTC, the next big release, trump at the Box Office?

My prediction -

Opening weekend(3 day) - 35 Cr

week 1 - 70 Cr

Total: 140 Cr

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There Are 389 Responses So Far. »

Som 29 December 2008
04:41:39 am

Opening:48-50cr
End nett.:82-85cr

utkal 29 December 2008
05:24:20 am

Opening:48-50cr
End nett.:82-85cr

Qalandar 29 December 2008
07:24:47 am

Opening: ~45 crores
Total: ~85-90 crores

Re: “a Warner Brother release in over 30 countries including China…”

My predictions are only for Indian domestic market. [Aside: for Ghajini i think i had predicted a 35 or so crore initial week, but reading these reports has led me to revise my estimates upwards]…

beld 29 December 2008
07:31:47 am

opening 40-45 cr
total 70-75cr (as all akshay movies go – so goes this one. good opening and then wooosh..)

ideaunique 29 December 2008
10:03:25 pm

i doubt it will do too well despite huge no.of prints, because

1). Ghajini and RNB have already made a huge dent in pockets
2). The movie release time is not a vacation period and neither it will a situation like people were awaiting a big release to rush to theaters as was the case with RNB
i’d keep my fingers crossed…

Gabber 29 December 2008
11:33:00 pm

idea- I think you have summarised the release risk aptly.

While Ghajini fulfilled all the 7 criteria for blockbuster, CCTC is meeting only 6 out of the 7 golden rule.

Gabber 6 January 2009
02:11:13 am

Going by the recent promos and fantastic offering by Akshay, I have upgraded my predictions. Ofcourse i am finding the theme of CCTC better and more crowd pleasing than Ghajini at this stage.

Opening weekend(3 day) – 35 Cr

week 1 – 70 Cr

Total: 140 Cr

julie 6 January 2009
02:25:53 am

Opening week: 50-53 crore (on par with Ghajini’s opening week)
Closing: 100 plus

Overseas: a monster. close to 45 crore plus. Right below KANK.

This films will breathe fire into the BO even if it is half as good as what the promos suggest.

julie 6 January 2009
02:34:27 am

One thing to note is that this producty is likely to have a very high repeat value, compared to Ghajini and RNBDJ, so I do expect it to trend extremely well (again if it is half as good as what the promos suggest). SIK was a bad product but even that netted to 75 crores. So a good product, with slick action, high on style and substance should easily fetch 100 crore plus.

Also there is a considerable gap between the last release and this one so the freshness shall be regained. Ghajini released on 23rd Dec literally and CC2C is releasing on 16th jan. There is considerable time lag as well as a curiosity about it to make it one of the most awaited films of 2009.

jayshah 6 January 2009
02:46:45 am

The only site that has SIK at 75Cr is IBOS now. BOI says 68Cr, even I had it at 67-70Cr.

ideaunique 6 January 2009
02:50:37 am

week 1 – 40 Cr

Total: 80 Cr nett (india)

rudresh 6 January 2009
03:55:03 am

week one will be 50 Cr
Overall 85-90 cr

RAJ 6 January 2009
04:52:41 am

At this moment i dont see any buzz whatsever for the movie..Even the muisc is not been a massive success like RNBDJ or Ghajini..

So with 1300 prints and akkis BO clout ..My prediction is..

Opening-40-45 cr
End -75-80 cr

sandy 6 January 2009
05:15:50 am

The problem with the music – though catchy and nice – is too ‘macho’ by with heavy male voices. That’s a slight turn off for me.

Aarohi 6 January 2009
05:19:11 am

I actually think CCTC soundtrack is a notch better than most Akshay starrers, SIK included.

saket 6 January 2009
05:26:42 am

Wow, that’s some confidence Gabber! A 70 Crore week would make Akki the biggest star in Bollywood, by some distance.

I’d go with 40-45 Crore opening (Can’t see how the South and Mumbai can be so huge for CCTC) and a final nett of 80 Crores.

jayshah 6 January 2009
05:34:49 am

I will go with beld here…I think CCTC will be a good movie in comparison to SIK or Welcome or HB, much better, but if SIK vs Ghajini comparison has shown one thing, it is whereas Ghajini was close to hanging with SIK in the North, whether it was East, South or Bombay – Ghajini was significantly ahead even accounting for prints, holidays, timbuktu, weather, fires, plauges and the kitchen sink. The margins set by Ghajini were that big.

Aarohi 6 January 2009
05:38:50 am

I think CCTC can reach 100 if the WOM is not bad.

satyam 6 January 2009
05:42:02 am

“Ghajini was significantly ahead even accounting for prints, holidays, timbuktu, weather, fires, plauges and the kitchen sink.”

LOL!

I too will go with 40-45 crores on the opening week. On the final gross I think it will trend better than Akshay’s better comedies if it’s liked because this might be more of a multiplex deal.

Gabber 6 January 2009
05:54:36 am

‘“Ghajini was significantly ahead even accounting for prints, holidays, timbuktu, weather, fires, plauges and the kitchen sink.”

Not to forget that even SIK’s opening of 44 Cr was significantly higher than the previous highest nett.

Gabber 6 January 2009
05:56:25 am

….and in terms of opening and craze it was second to none over the weekends. comparision of its opening with Gadar, extended shows, et al had made SIK as eventful as anything else.

RAJ 6 January 2009
06:13:03 am

Gabber,

You must agree with me that SIK carried great hype when it released…which CCTC is clearly missing at this mommnet…May be early days and Akki would pr5omote it like mad(Aamir) in last 7 days…

But a 40-45 cr opening is a fair assessment at this moment…

ILG 6 January 2009
06:33:19 am

To say CCTC carries no hype is either dishonest or plain stupid.
I dont think it will cross Ghajini but a huge opening nonetheless. Defo more than RNBDJ. Will probably end up same as RNBDJ.

saket 6 January 2009
07:25:41 am

Okay, I did a basic calculation assuming 1300 prints for CCTC. With an average weekend occupancy of 80% and a subsequent 60% nett on the weekdays, I come up with a figure of 50 Crores (max)

It might just end up at exactly 45 Crores, in the end! Assuming a bigger fall over the weekdays.

Aarohi 6 January 2009
07:38:39 am

CCTC will enjoy a long 2nd weekend. Factor that in.

saket 6 January 2009
07:53:49 am

In any case 70 Crore opening is ruled out. The maximum possible opening that CCTC can get is 62 crores. That is assuming a 100% occupancy on weekends and a 40% drop on weekdays!

saket 6 January 2009
07:58:41 am

And there’s no way I see that kind of hype for CCTC! 45 Crore is the exact figure, by me.

jayshah 6 January 2009
08:27:47 am

Saket, maximum possible opening is 100% collections all week! Then maybe CCTC will make 75Cr!

But realistically…SIK made 40-42Cr or 40Cr (BOI or producers). Getting to 70Cr, literally 10Cr per day, well, if that happened Akshay would be undisputable King.

Realistically, I expect 45-47Cr. Explanation, Ghajini added some prints to SIK. If Ghajini did what all others did in past, it would have added 2-4Cr on the total, maybe take the record to 42-46Cr. But its taken it well over 50Cr (because it was a “speechless” opening). I don’t expect CCTC to do a Ghajini, maybe it will do more than what “normal” Ghajini would have done so I say 45-47Cr with the added advantage of prints. Then 80Cr total should be reachable.

Gabber 6 January 2009
09:38:28 am

well it is always difficult to predict a record opening. No one except a big Aamir fan predicted Ghajini’s opening correctly. Even the 2nd biggest fan used far far lesser opening for Ghajini.Undoubtedly Ghajini’s opening has pleasantly surprised us all.
My argument is that in all probability Akshay enjoys bigger mass adulation at this stage. Moreover CCTC is looking his best film since he became superstar. It has the massiest genre (comedy + action) and there is noone better in this genre than Akshay. Public knows this. They were waiting for this kind of film from Akshay. The promos of SIK and Welcome promised that but were not exactly what promos had suggested.
With CCTC story now known to everyone, there is no surprises here and juntaa is now doubly sure of what they will get. This imo is the biggest trump card that CCTC has.

This makes CCTC the biggest film and i will not be surprised if it commands a larger than life BO presence. 60 Cr+ week1 is definitely looking achievable. Forget the lack of buzz, 15th Jan will be witnessing an even – mark my words.

Gabber 6 January 2009
09:40:03 am

*event*

Gabber 6 January 2009
09:49:51 am

Tango Bhai, what’s your take on CCTC?

Tango 6 January 2009
09:54:19 am

Wait for now Gabber. The fact is its still Ghajini all the way so I cannot say anything as of now.

Gabber 6 January 2009
10:00:20 am

ok…will ask the same question next week.
Ghajini is indded still the flavour.

Tango 6 January 2009
10:09:37 am

Yes Gabber I like level headed fans like you.

Ghajini is still rocking as a film. And I do not waste my energy deconstructing genuine superhits.

jayshah 6 January 2009
10:14:30 am

Gabber must congratulate you. If being a fan is about predicting the highest numbers possible, then I applaud your fandom of Akshay Kumar, your definitely the biggest fan on this thread then.

satyam 6 January 2009
10:32:36 am

Gabber: The Ghajini opening is an event precisely because no one expected this. Ideaunique was throwing out some massive numbers and frankly I did not believe it. What is predictable cannot be an event. It’s as simple as that.

I will however disagree that SIK was exactly like this. Akshay is massive. A case could be made that he is the topmost star, I’ve made it myself many times. SIK was just huge. All of this I can and have accepted. But I just cannot see the case for SIK being the same as Ghajini.

And I’m not overhyping Ghajini because I like Aamir more. That never has anything to do with my box office statements. If you recall when Tashan got mauled and some here were celebrating I was the one who said it didn’t mean anything and SIK would have a monstrous opening nonetheless. I said this a few times.

I think you have the sense that people are unfairly supporting Ghajini. That’s not true. The film has just posted incredible numbers. Don’t fall for this holiday/non-holiday and what not deal. Many films have had the advantage of holidays, lack of competition and so forth.

The amusing thing is that when CDI had the entire Independence Day weekend to itself and later on when TZP did the same business the same folks perhaps neglected to notice that TZP ran against a monster like Welcome and did the very same business! So all of this is just politics.

Som 6 January 2009
07:37:44 pm

SIK did 29cr in 3 days
Capacity in a day:10-11cr approx.
No of cinemas:988

Rab Ne 25cr in 3 days:
Capacity in a day:Same as SIK or bit lesser
No of cinemas:950

Ghajini 40cr in 4 days,Friday had like 11-11.5cr
Capacity in a day:11-12cr approx.
No of cinemas:1125

Assuming CCTC will be releasing in 100-150 more cinemas(may go up to 200) than Ghajini and probably be having more number of shows at multiplexes,the estimate for a day IMO would be around 12-13cr which will mean the weekend can be 36-39cr if there is 100% occupancy.My guess would be CCTC showing around 90% occupancy on an average in the weekend which will give a weekend figure of anything between 33-35cr.

Weekend: 33-35cr

Now coming back to weekdays where most of the Akshay’s films do tend to take a fall with the exception of “Welcome” in recent years, anything more than 50% fall would restrict the first week well within 50cr mark.

If we look at the performance of the biggies in 2008 most of them have taken more than 50% fall in the weekdays with the exception of Rab Ne and Ghajini.

CCTC if manages to hold up well in the weekdays say falls by 40-45% as compared to weekend, I can see it doing around 53-54cr in first week.If does better,the first week will see crossing 55cr quite comfortably.Anything over 50% fall will certainly keep it within or just around 50cr.

ideaunique 6 January 2009
07:53:00 pm

“Ideaunique was throwing out some massive numbers and frankly I did not believe it”
LOL Satyam,
ab to puri duniya maan rahi hain

btw, i am willing to throw similar nos. for 3i if they release it similar or more no. of prints…

One more thing…DHOBI GHAAT is going to be THE BIGGEST EVER PROFIT-MAKING VENTURE ANY PRODUCER HAD IN BOLLYWOOD – how? made at just 2 cr and aamir being part of it – it will be sold at 40 cr (india) + 10 cr overseas + 30-40 cr for music, satelite, DVD etc… rights.. = around 80-90 cr = evenif we take little more realistic figure let us say 60-70 cr – producer Kiran Rao makes almost 30 to 35 times profit on production cost… which other movie in the past has generated so much profit for producers??? TZP and JT were made around 10-15 cr (i m not taking here marketing cost as we are talking abt. profit to producers…) and they went on to fetch more than 50 cr (including overseas and all other rights to the producers) still the profit was 5-6 times of production cost….but 30-35 times????

For me, DHOBI GHAAT is the dark horse of 2009…..

ideaunique 6 January 2009
07:56:14 pm

Kiran rao kit to chal padi bhai…jab miya is PARAS-MANI, how can her project not get converted into GOLD?

ideaunique 6 January 2009
07:57:14 pm

“ki to chal padi bhai”

ideaunique 6 January 2009
08:09:08 pm

Aamir is the hottest brand today in BW and i’m quite keen to know his decision abt. the script for Kishore Kumar’s life…

ideaunique 6 January 2009
08:15:20 pm

CCTC will have tough time in 2nd week ‘cos i think RAAZ, SDM and Changeling (angelina jolie) are releasing on 23rd jan….

Som 6 January 2009
08:28:11 pm

Don’t think CCTC will be hugely affected by Raaz 2 in the 2nd weekend.Raaz 2 can only harm if:

1- It takes an extra ordinary start at the BO,something no one would have expected.

2- The WOM of CCTC is just not good enough.

ideaunique 6 January 2009
08:34:16 pm

Som, SDM is also eagerly awaited in India so combined with RAAZ 2 – it will make a huge dent in CCTC’s collection…i think…

ideaunique 6 January 2009
08:36:52 pm

WANTED (Jolie) did v. good business in India, so her new movie Changeling will be another good option for movie-goers on 23rd….so there are 3 movies releasing on that day + 1 more name FIRAAQUE (looks like a suspense thriller)…RAAZ2 has also been publicized heavily and it will def. have a good start if not great…

ideaunique 6 January 2009
09:27:10 pm

keeping in mind the release of raaz2,SDM, Jolie-movie on 23rd, i’d revise my prediction for CCTC:
week 1 – 40 Cr NETT (India)

Total: 60-70 Cr nett (india)

sandy 6 January 2009
09:28:27 pm

Agree with Idea. Raaz 2 and SDM are very awaited films.

Aarohi 6 January 2009
09:32:03 pm

idea: if you are talking about Nandita Das’ Firaaq, it is not s suspense thriller. A Hollywood flick can’t be considered threats to a major Hindi film unless you are taking about Bond or some superhero film. Raaz 2 should open well, but then 2nd week has the extended weekend also.

sandy 6 January 2009
09:34:16 pm

Aawarapan suffered becasue its timing was all wrong. In this case, they have one superhit song on their hand, Maahi Ve – which should be enough to get audiences in. Also, they have a certain sequel advantage with the name ‘Raaz’. So once the public is in, half the batttel is won for the Bhatts, because Mohit Suri isn’t known to dissapoint.

The only problem area is that Horror is not a favoured genre in India, so that has its limitations. But again Raaz was the biggest hit in the year it release, so one cannot say.

SDM will be supported by a niche audiene, so I don’t see it making any major dent in CCTC’s collections. But if the film really picks up, then tehre could be a problem with theatres giving it more shows. But Raaz 2 is really the bigger competititor.

ideaunique 6 January 2009
09:42:30 pm

is there any movie releasing with CCTC on 16th? i read that 5 small films are releasing on 9th – chotte players bhi bahut hai….kya pata kaun kab chal pade? president is coming, BAD LUCK GOVIND (poor Hrishita, i really like her talent but luck is not favoring her and once again she finds her in a situation where her release sandwitched betn. 2 biggies….) and 3 more……

Jesse 6 January 2009
09:44:47 pm

CC2C is not going to put up Ghajini numbers. I just don’t see that happening. But what I do see is 40-45 cr in the first week and similar initials for both Blue and Kambakht Ishq, which is very impressive in its own right.

The only film that has a shot at beating the Ghajini opening is 3 Idiots especially given that this seems far more multiplex friendly. Plus if Aamir can open up a film alone (Ok fine 5-10% of the audience knew who Asin was), imagine what he can do with a star like Kareena on board!

ideaunique 6 January 2009
09:49:52 pm

aar, agreed that jolie is no bond or superhero – but just visualize a situation with multiplex crowd in the weekend – they will have 3 choices – CCTC, RAAZ, JOLIE-MOVIE – I tell you it’s a difficult thing to choose – jolie is a major draw in youth – i remember watching her WANTED in a multiplex – it was running to packed houses…RAAZ2, as sandy said as many things going for it….unless CCTC is a quality product, it will have an uphill task from 2nd week onwards….

ideaunique 6 January 2009
09:53:41 pm

correction – “they will have 3 choices – CCTC, RAAZ, JOLIE-MOVIE”

actually they will have 4 choices – CCTC, RAAZ, JOLIE-MOVIE, SDM….that makes is really interesting

ideaunique 6 January 2009
10:05:39 pm

Paathshala – i think this is also releasing sometime around CCTC?? LOL Akki to band-baraat ke saath aa raha hei CCTC ke aage 5 films, piche 5 films….

ideaunique 6 January 2009
10:15:14 pm

Clint Eastwood directs Angelina Jolie – Changeling…
vow, i’m gonna this one for sure, might give a miss to CCTC becose my 2nd choice will be RAAZ….

ideaunique 6 January 2009
10:28:29 pm

RT has some gr8 reviews for Changeling…
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/.....hangeling/

sandy 6 January 2009
10:30:55 pm

“Paathshala – i think this is also releasing sometime around CCTC?? LOL Akki to band-baraat ke saath aa raha hei CCTC ke aage 5 films, piche 5 films….”

LOL, Idea!

ideaunique 6 January 2009
10:41:43 pm

a nice review of Changeling – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvs.....t-day.html

sv 6 January 2009
11:16:48 pm

Anything above 80 crores is very good for CCTC.

Gabber 6 January 2009
11:29:00 pm

‘Clint Eastwood directs Angelina Jolie – Changeling’

Man…if this is true, this is my most awaited film of 2009.

Satyam, I do understand the politics around Ghajini. Nothing new. Every big success have attracted those. Take SIK, OSO, RNBDJ for example. With SIK, you had a whole writeup by Pritish Nandy that was lapped up by many here. Here I am talking about external politics. Internal politics are self evident.
This is a sure sign of success. In case of Ghajini, i think, its sucess measures are multiple and is now the new benchmark. Including Aamir himself, everyone is stunned by its collections. This in a way sets the tone for next releases.
IMO, RNBDJ also had excellent collections. But i am afraid that Ghajini has just stolen the thunder from it. While SIK enjoyed the biggest opening tag for close to 5 months, in case of RNBDJ it was for few days only.
But again RNBDJ was phenomenal in its own ways. It is just that Ghajini made the successes of earlier blockbusters look miniscule in comparision and this includes Aamir’s earlier successes as well.

On CCTC, I feel there is certainly a big buzz. It is just that it is getting overshadowed by the ‘in front of your eyes’ success of Ghajini. Once CCTC releases and if becomes a success in its own way, people will be talikg of a dream 30 days for Bollywood – Dec 14 – Jan 16. I am sure success of CCTC will widen the gap between the top 3 and the rest for atleast a year unless there is an ATBB from Salman/Abhishek/Hrithik.

At this stage in my books, Aamir is at the top. no doubts about that. This is followed by SRK/Akshay (Hardly any difference in ranking – No 2). CCTC will decide
1. If Blockbuster – Aamir and Akshay No 1. Whoever of these two gives the next superhit will become a leader.
2. If Not then

Aamir -> No 1
SRN -> No 2
Akshay -> No 3 (with a real danger of losing this to Hrithik (Kites) or Abhishek (Dilli 6, Raavan)

Gabber 6 January 2009
11:33:39 pm

So to summarise, Aamir has stabilised his position. SRK too in some way for No 2. It is Akshay who is vulnerable and can be anywhere in the top 3 and stands a chance to slide downwards if His releases this year is not a phenomenal.
CCTC in many ways is a clincher for Akshay.

Tango 6 January 2009
11:43:38 pm

Very funny the guy who has given 3 blockbuster hits in a row in no. 2

And why is Akshay in avulnerable position? Just because a multistarrer the release of which was botched become ‘the most earning flop’

Ng is surely going places I must admit.

neelu 6 January 2009
11:52:15 pm

Tango the target moves for different stars. That is the reality. With 3 blockbusters in a row, and all the honors piled on him SRK is still number two. I have a question to ask people – so all those years when his films were the top earners – were the same people willing to admit to his numero uno position? If this is based purely on the biggest earners each year then SRK and Hritik share the honors.

Gabber 7 January 2009
12:02:07 am

‘Very funny the guy who has given 3 blockbuster hits in a row in no. 2′

Tango it does sound strange
But then it is a competition, isn’t it and who is the better person to acknowledge other’s success than you.

‘I have a question to ask people – so all those years when his films were the top earners – were the same people willing to admit to his numero uno position?’

Neelu, I have always admitted SRK being No 1 all along.

Tango/Neelu – Akshay’s success parameter has always been – beat the competition. If the competition comes to his level, he becomes vulnerable. You are remembered by your last success and that too by how recently you achieved that.
I am taking this bait of CCTC being the decider. I have absolutely no doubt that it will be a monster. If it turn out to be turkey, will anybody say that he is above Aamir/SRK?

Before RNBDJ, SRK’s position too was vulnerable and same goes for Aamir before Ghajini. There are lot at stakes nowadays as the competition is really catching up in the top league. One slip and you may be out of the game. Ofcourse being a superstar you may bounce back but then it better be a good and high bounce.

neelu 7 January 2009
12:06:23 am

Gabber – please start a “superstar and number one of the month” thread then so we can keep track of these movements. This will be NG’s Baskin Robbins thread.

Tango 7 January 2009
12:17:36 am

Bhai if it is just raw collections that matter then why dont we discuss it in the case of Gadar and Lagaan? The whole media just ignored the collections. It becomes more important because Gadar was just an 18-20 crore film!

neelu 7 January 2009
12:22:51 am

Tango – I told you the target moves depending on the star!

Tango 7 January 2009
12:28:01 am

In fact all of a sudden there are takers for this number game based on collections. Till last year that criteria had no takers on this same NG

Kisne kisko kitne se beat kiya etc. etc. no one was willing to debate.

Gabber 7 January 2009
12:28:25 am

At the time of release of Lagaan, Aamir was not there even in top 3. So comparision ka to sawaal hi nahin hota hai.

Sunny deol became way ahead of the rest of the stars and almost came at par with SRK in India, the way Akshay has done off late. But Sunny couldn’t sustain that while SRK did it intelligently.
Aamir’s reassuringly big moment is now – Ghajini. Now he has to sustain it. Same goes with Akshay when he gave a bumper 2007 followed by SIK. He too needs to sustain this. SRK has been doing this for over a decade now.

Tango 7 January 2009
12:31:24 am

That is a valid point Gabber.

Gabber 7 January 2009
12:31:52 am

Tango LOL
I have always maintained that collection is KING. My honours for SRK for so long and for Akshay in last couple of years and for Aamir very recently is all built around that.
Here also it is not only one big peak like Mt Everest but one has to build the whole Himalayas. The Mt Everest need not be there but the mountain range is a must.

Gabber 7 January 2009
12:35:05 am

‘Here also it is not only one big peak like Mt Everest but one has to build the whole Himalayas. The Mt Everest need not be there but the mountain range is a must.’

This is where Hrithik is missing out. A couple of Mt Everest may not stop chinese invasion. But a wide range of mountains close to each other saves the country.

Ofcourse Mt Everest will remain the most visited top but Himalayan range’s popularity in India (From Kashmir to Arunachal) will beat it any day. I am sure Hrithik is planning a range by 2010.

RAJ 7 January 2009
12:51:46 am

Gabber..

BO collection indeed is the criteria and should be the criteria..

On this count SRK was at top since long..But now Akki has caught up with SRK atleast in India consistently and aamir has done that with Ghajini..

So i sincerely believe the era of one man being at top has ceased and its now a 3/4 tier sytar system with SRK,aamir,Aki and HR at tbhe top bracket…

Aarohi 7 January 2009
01:03:36 am

“A couple of Mt Everest may not stop chinese invasion.”

LOL, Chinese invasion on 16th Jan.

Tango 7 January 2009
01:11:01 am

“A couple of Mt Everest may not stop chinese invasion.”

LOL, Chinese invasion on 16th Jan.

ideaunique 7 January 2009
01:21:27 am

for me:

1). Akki
2). SRK
3). HR

Aamir? he is above no. game along with BIG B

ideaunique 7 January 2009
01:27:41 am

i doubt cctc do too well despite huge no.of prints, because

1). Ghajini and RNB have already made a huge dent in pockets
2). The movie release time is not a vacation period and neither it will a situation like people were awaiting a big release to rush to theaters as was the case with RNB
i’d keep my fingers crossed…
3). 23rd sees release of RAAZ 2 (Backed by Sony pictures) – which has also created lot of curiosity, SDM with all the hype in int. markets, Changeling (eastwood directing jolie – people like me prefer watching this over CCTC, R2 first and then may be those two…)
4). cctc has 5 small films releasing before it on 9th – so niche audience might have lot of options instead of just going for cctc in the absence of any other movie….on 23rd, there are 4 movies (3 of them mentioned in point 3 above)…

i really think that it would have done better if released in vacations…

Gabber 7 January 2009
01:38:07 am

idea,

point 1 -> Ghajini and RNB have already made a huge dent in pockets

Really?????

Point 2 -> The movie release time is not a vacation period and neither it will a situation like people were awaiting a big release to rush to theaters as was the case with RNB

agree. this will have 5% impact on the collections at most. So a difference of 3-4 Cr

Point 3 -> 23rd sees release of RAAZ 2 (Backed by Sony pictures) – which has also created lot of curiosity, SDM with all the hype in int. markets, Changeling (eastwood directing jolie – people like me prefer watching this over CCTC, R2 first and then may be those two…)

Not too sure about Changeling but Raaz 2 is a potential speed breaker. This can be the case of Bachnaa Ae Haseenon of 2008.

Point 4 -> cctc has 5 small films releasing before it on 9th – so niche audience might have lot of options instead of just going for cctc in the absence of any other movie….on 23rd, there are 4 movies (3 of them mentioned in point 3 above)…

‘niche’ audience never mattered to Akshay Kumar movies! It hardly makes a difference.

sandy 7 January 2009
01:51:41 am

Idea: Except for your 2nd and 3rd point, the rest of it is not so serious for CCTC IMO

Also, only two films are releasing on Jan 9th. Horn Ok Please has been postponed for the nth time, so it’s only The President Is Coming and another one called Bad Luck Govind. I see multiplexes giving preference to The President Is Coming, reducing some shows of both Rab Ne(2 shows) and Ghajini(5 shows).

Aarohi 7 January 2009
02:08:50 am

The President Is Coming is produced by Sippy’s.

ideaunique 7 January 2009
02:50:08 am

Gabber, LOL although not much in my pocket

here is a list jan releases http://www.bollywoodhungama.co.....ex_in.html

it will be a pity that most of these small released will meet a similar fate – “DISASTER”, it is in a way suicidal to release so many movies in a month…..Paathshaala is postponded to April’09

Kassh mere hote (9th) – doesn’t have impressive cast
Firaaq (23rd) – solid cast with naseer, paresh, tisca, deepti naval……and ravi chandran, nandita goswami…..
so that alongwith RAAZ2 and SDM are good/fresh horses in the race with a “1 week tired” CCTC

ideaunique 7 January 2009
02:51:51 am

Murderer (23) has MIMOH….looks like he should change his name to “Disaster Chakravorty” Mithun has many sleepless nights ahead after the success of CCTC….:-)

sv 7 January 2009
06:04:40 am

Shahrukh was No1 from 2002-2006.After dhoom2,he is no longer no1.From 2007 Akshay is No1.
gabber,let CCTC release.A superstar is unaffected by outside factors,if the film is released properly.

Tiger 7 January 2009
06:21:51 am

Aaah short term memories at play here! How can just one big hit catapult someone to a position which takes years to attain and decades to maintain? The fact remains SRK is still the actor to beat. Having a monster in Ghajini or SIK in only 2008 has not in anyway significantly altered the position dynamics in bollywood.Seems people are in so much hurry to see the end of SRK’s reign.By bollywood standards, to displace SRK one has to be consistent in the hit and awards game for at least ten years which automatically disqualifies Aamir and Akki for now and the bad news for the neurotics is that SRK is still delivering to either maintain his numero uno position or take it to more higher heights.All Akki and Aamir can do now is to work overtime for many more years to come! May be by the time SRK gives up the duo will be old and worn out to compete with the likes of HR,Abhi Baby,Harman Baweja,Ranbir etc.

RAJ 7 January 2009
06:33:15 am

Tiger,

Agree here with you…

Akki has to give hits consistenly for atleast 5 more years and SRK has to fail simultaneously to make him no.1

Reg Aamir i do not consider him in the race for no.1 at this moment (inspite of Ghajini…)because he has too much of a ordinary first 15 years to start up with(BO wise).

RAJ 7 January 2009
07:00:23 am

Ideanique,

“”Aamir? he is above no. game along with BIG B”

Actually Aamir is the below the number game…One good hit with Ghajini cant make anybody no.1

At this momnet Aamir is way below SRK and Akki as far as BO game is concrned..

Regarding Amitabh….He was the numero Uno since 1975 till 1986 in truer terms.At this momnet Amitabh Bachan is BO nonentity…Audince do not give a damn about Amitabh releases..the whole above the BO is thing is plain bullshit…

NyKavi 7 January 2009
07:48:06 am

Aamir didnt give a flop in the last 8 yrs. And if someone discounts the returns of RDB/Fanaa/TZP/Ghajini, then they delude themselves.

In any case, those investors that choose to ignore Aamir/Akshay/HR can do so at their own peril. The realistic ones can smell-see-feel a “Hot” proposition and always go for the kill. The rest will stick to SRK (btw, how many ppl has SRK given blockbusters for outside of YRF-KHO and himself?)

ILG 7 January 2009
07:50:12 am

NYKavi,
Kyun apna waqt jayar kar rahe ho? Do you honestly think these comments deserve a response?

NyKavi 7 January 2009
07:51:38 am

Too many other points to state, which have already been stated previously in many diff threads.

Again, not bringing down SRK in anyway. As I have stated before, the hardcore SRK fans will not admit that, at present the superstardom is a shared mantle. Consistency and History determine superstardom, but to claim that it takes 10 yrs to display that is a bit of a stretch. If that is the parameter, then let the ppl who wallow in this parameter not make anything off the current happening lot.
There is no monopoly on superstardom.

NyKavi 7 January 2009
07:52:40 am

ILG, sahi kaha aapne!

jayshah 7 January 2009
07:59:32 am

Hardcore SRK fans? I can think of far more stinging words here. Anyway I like tigers so won’t go against the comment here. I fear being biten.

ILG 7 January 2009
08:03:26 am

Re:I can think of far more stinging words here.
Like : Stench-spreading waste products of FK, inexplicably and probably inadvertantly admitted by owner/moderator.

sv 7 January 2009
11:46:11 am

I think people have forgotten salman khan before 2002.Being consistent does not mean being No1.

S T R E E T 7 January 2009
09:31:04 pm

star wars.. I love them lol. Here’s how it all plays.. if you’re trying to prove Akshay’s ahead of SrK, you leave Aamir behind Hrithik.. and even if not, you’ll have to admit that Aamir wasn’t in the top 5 until RDB/Fanaa.. As Tango points out gross-wise Lagaan-DCH were nothing to Gadar-Indian, or even KNPH-MK for that matter.
But if you play the Aamir’s prestige card and all the talk about trending and what not… then Akshay and Hrithik are far behind SrK and the likes of Salman, Sunny and Govinda get little to no love for their BO power in the 90’s.
But the best part of it all is.. teh more you question SrK’s Bo power today, the worse it makes Amitabh of post-83 look… coz in the worst case scenario .. even if you are totally anti-SrK , you still give him the 95-2005 decade during which he had 60% of the highest grossers, held the opening record for 70% of the time and won all awards and accolades.. and what not.. making him the longest running top star in Bollywood ever. Do it for yourself.. list the top 10-20 grossers between 95 and 2005… or if you wanna clear more doubts list the ones between 93 and 05.. that’s twelve years for you. Sheer dominance my friend!

Gabber 7 January 2009
09:35:37 pm

‘if you’re trying to prove Akshay’s ahead of SrK, you leave Aamir behind Hrithik.. and even if not, you’ll have to admit that Aamir wasn’t in the top 5 until RDB/Fanaa’

well not exactly. I have maintined SRK’s supremacy in the last decade or so. And post Ghajini I think Aamir is definitly at the top now (and very deservingly as well). I do not want Akki at the cost of denying other star’s success. But yes, Akshay’s successes will get his share of honours like any other star.

RAJ 7 January 2009
09:36:21 pm

Street..

Amitabhs fall starred from 1985 when he was 43….After the age of 43 how many BO hits Amitah has delivered???

SRK is at the age 43…now…we will know how many BO hits SRK gives after this age…

S T R E E T 7 January 2009
09:36:30 pm

playing the devil here… akshay’s the only top star who’s had a flop in the past 3 years. Aamir’s last film to fail MP was in 05.. so was SrK’s Paheli and Hrithik’s Lakshya was in 04. Tashan was only a few months ago. And unlike a Paheli, or for that matter Lakshya it was a full blown commercial flick… on the lines of OSO.

RAJ 7 January 2009
09:42:13 pm

Street,

Exactly my point….From 2005 on SRK has 5 hits in a row including 3 back to back Bbs.

Amir have 4 hits in a row including 2 back to BBs.

Where as Akki have 3 flops and 5 hits..

S T R E E T 7 January 2009
09:42:53 pm

Gabber.. I actually happen to agree with most of your claims in your comments above. And my criteria is similar, if not same, as yours. But you very conveniently put aside Tashan and its significance. In teh 90’s.. it was okay to do that with flops.. becase hits weren’t aplenty as they are in today’s market… but when we have 4 stars each upping the other with every successive film.. a flop means a lot. Hrithik, Aamir and SrK haven’t delivered any in a while… while Akshay did.. and that’s why I’d think twice before putting him ahead of the other 3.
ANd yes.. Ghajini is big.. and definitely an equation changer.. atleast for me and my rankings of the stars’ positions.

Gabber 7 January 2009
09:43:31 pm

The highest grossing flop was few crores away from recovering its high cost and could have done that easily had it got a proper release.

One ‘highest grossing flop’ by Akshay doesn’t matter in his wider pool of successes.

Gabber 7 January 2009
09:46:02 pm

But i am not denying that Tashan did throw a spanner in these kind of competition. That’s why post RNBDJ and Ghajini, it is CCTC that will decide. Otherwise had Tashan been a blockbuster, Akshay would have been right there on the top (not to forget his super 2007).

S T R E E T 7 January 2009
09:47:35 pm

Having said that.. if Akki’s CC2C does a Ghajini.. it’ll put some serious pressure on Hrithik more than anyone else.

As for SrK.. after being at the top, and well ahead of Akki and Aamir, for a decade and a half, it will take a lot more than just a Ghajini, including some failures by himself, to be thrown over from the throne.

Gabber 7 January 2009
09:54:58 pm

‘As for SrK.. after being at the top, and well ahead of Akki and Aamir, for a decade and a half, it will take a lot more than just a Ghajini, including some failures by himself, to be thrown over from the throne.’

Street, I can understand from where you are coming from. Your range of decider is longer than mine. Mine is not short, but is say a 3-4 years types.
Also anyone’s failures will not decide who be get ahead. It will be everyone’s success degree that will decide that.

sv 7 January 2009
10:00:22 pm

Since 2007 Akshay had one hit,4 superhits,one below average,which did not have a proper release.Shahrukh has three superhits.Aamir has one superhit,and a historic grosser.And ghajini outgrossed rab ne by a big margin.hrithik has two superhits,and one above average.So Akshay,shahrukh,aamir now.we will know soon who is on top.If we look at shahrukh from 1997-2001,dtph,kkhh are multistarrers,and so are mohabbatein,kkkg.

RAJ 7 January 2009
10:04:40 pm

DTPH and KKHH are multistarrers??

Then what were Hey baby,Bhul Bulaiya,Namastay london and welcome?????

S T R E E T 7 January 2009
10:05:20 pm

sv… CDI, OSO and RNBDJ are genuine blockbusters..

RAJ 7 January 2009
10:05:48 pm

and also Bhagam Bhag..

Have Akki ever in his carer given a hit without being multistarrer???

S T R E E T 7 January 2009
10:19:03 pm

gabber.. if you ask me.. I happen to beleive that Amitabh was no.1 all the way till 92.. even if he didn’t have much success post 83.. or going Raj’s way post-85. But then.. we’d have to apply the same to SrK… coz not only is SrK also beyond numbers.. but he’s more successful at a point 15 years after taking the throne.. than Amitabh was 6 years after topppling Khanna. The way it works with BO kings.. is that an existing #2 is not given the throne …e.g. Dharam delivering more hits than Rajesh Khanna between 73-78.. or Anil Kapoor delivering all those hits 88 to 92 but given to the new rising star Amitabh and SrK respectively. That’s why I always maintained that if there were a star that came really close to toppling Srk it were none other but Hrithik.. but he missed his chance twice and now I guess we’ll have to wait for the next superstar to be born.. in the meantime.. we are in that 73-78 or 85-91 mould where the top star is SrK simply by default.. and it doesn’t help that he’s not delivering flops.. making his case even stronger. In fact.. far from being a rajesh Khanna or a Amitabh of those periods.. he’s matching the biggest hits every year. gave a Don to Fanna.. a CDI to Kriish/TZP and an OSO to D2/SIK …

Gabber 7 January 2009
10:46:05 pm

Street, I cannot disagree with you.
SRK’s position can be defended easily and that’s why I regard him so highly. He has been simply superb in his career.
Akshay and Aamir are latest entrants just as Hrithik, Anil Kapoor were there at there peaks.
The key here is consistancy of success. So anyone who shows this becomes an apparent heir but to reach to the top you have to beat the best year after year.
Now I see that there are many stars close to SRK. Aamir with Ghajini has really come a long way and with Akshay is closest to SRK than any actor has ever been. The question is will they beat SRK consistently. A clear answer always comes after some years. Right now what we are witnessing is a fad. What the fans like me see is the beginning of a trend. I may be wrong and if it happens, SRK will remain to be the toast of the trend.

Gabber 7 January 2009
10:56:51 pm

Street, coming back to the topic of this thread, what’s your prediction on CCTC?

sv 7 January 2009
11:07:01 pm

Heyy Baby,Namaste London and Bhool Bhuliaya are multistarers?
Then Don,OSO are also multistarrers.
Dharmendra lost momentum by 1976.He couldn’t give bigger hits than Amitabh.Amitabh was No1 star from 1977-1986.
After 1983 Amitabh had superhits like sharabi,mard,giraftaar,
and a hit in aakhree raasta.
And yes,Anil Kapoor is No1 from 1987-1992 as I said before.
And after 1992,there is no clear No1 in 1990s.Although salman
has more hits than anyone else.

Gabber 7 January 2009
11:28:04 pm

sv, your claim of Anil Kapoor being No 1 from 87-92 can be agreed. Tezaab, Raam Lakhan, Beta were big hits that comes to my mind instantly. I am sure there were many more from Anil Kapoor during this period. His moustache was a craze during those days and i feel his downfall started after he shaved it off in Lamhe.
In early 90s, Sanju baba had become popular as well and I was his big fan.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
06:51:06 am

When Amitabh was #1, specifically in the 1976-1982 period, you could go to a cinema at any day of the year and watch an Amitabh movie which in BO terms would range anywhere from ATBB to commission earner. This was why they said that Amitabh is #1-#10, he had alone lifted Bwood fortunes on his shoulders. During that period, nearly 50% of all Bwood money rode on him alone. I dont think anyone has achieved that feat in bwood, not SRK definitely.
Another thing regarding post 1985. The accident and disease had taken its toll on Amitabh’s physicality. The physicality was key to his action genre. One just had to watch Shahenshah to understand how sloppy he looked, the broad shoulders were gone, he had resorted to wearing shoulder pads. Without those, he had a A shaped physique. No excuse, but lets just say that despite all those encumbering restrictions, Amitabh kept performing with his sheer talent. If he had had the advantage of a healthy body, unquestionably he would have not lost a grip.
I think Anil Kapoor did capitalize from 1987 onwards, but he had started giving a string of flops by 1989 itself and the industry started looking up to Sanjay Dutt. Dutt then got embroiled in his legal issues and was gone by 1993. We all know what happened after that.

julie 8 January 2009
06:59:38 am

“Tezaab, Raam Lakhan, Beta were big hits that comes to my mind instantly. ”

There are some exceptions one has to make when choosing films which have Madhuri and Sridevi as a common denominator. In their own respect these two were the only actresses (more so the former) who could give the lead actors a complet run for money if not overshadow them.

Having said that there is no harm in proclaiming Anil as number 1 during this period (with the mantle being shared with Madhuri/ Sridevi). SRK was hardly present in this period.

julie 8 January 2009
07:15:34 am

Nykavi – agree with your statement by and large. Most wonderful thing about Amitabh’s films and I have always mainatained this is the repeat value his films offered, with not one moment of boredom. Most of his films could reach the hit or BB tag with literally zero publicity.

So when you can achieve so much with so little investment that speaks volumes. This also applies true for certain other stars of yesteryears. I don’t know whether the industry has changed for better or worse but the fact of the matter is that there is lesser investment on quality and more investment on generating BO returns most of the time at the risk of compromising on quality.

Speaking of which I saw Ghajini yesterday in the theatre. A thoroughly underwhelming experience. RNBDJ was disappointing, Ghajini underwhelming. Hope CC2C will live up to the hype and expectations

sv 8 January 2009
07:26:05 am

Actually,shahenshah had a 100% opening in 1988,and the film fell because it was not liked.Today it would have opened at 56 crores.Yes Amitabh’s physicality is also a factor as nykavi has pointed out.And Anil already made an impression with Mr India a year earlier.I think it would be unfair not to give it to Anil because he was the most popular star during that period.And another factor which worked against Amitabh was his huge price.He was taking more than 1-1.25 crores after 1988,and that meant selling the film at huge prices.Films after 1990 would have also been hits if the budget is lower.His standards were higher.
Amitabh is the one super star star to have remianed undisputedly at the top for a decade,something which no other star has achieved.
The Indian film market was stagnated from 1986-1992.Indian economy was not doing well,public weren’t watching films,and Anil gave some big hits during that period.
Madhruri was not a big star when Ram Lakhan were released.
I think Anil was the main draw in Mr India.
After 1992,sanjay dutt was seen as a successor but that did not happen.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
07:51:39 am

There is also the “effect” of Amitabh on bwood. Before he happened to bwood, action was not a genre in the reckoning. He infused this into the mainstream, so much so that hardly anything else worked. This also had the effect on what the physicality of a hero ought to be. No more short actors, all new actors had to measure up to Amitabh. With a lack of tall heroes, the industry even converted the villanous duo of Khanna/Sinha to heroes! The only shorty who survived was Rishi. After that, the next batch of new heroes were Sunju-Anil-Jackie-Sunny, who were certainly had to measure up to that physicality.
There also was no other who could measure up to Amitabh’s sheer talent. As I stated previouly, only Sanjiv matched the talent, but sadly lacked the physicality to survive in the genre of the day. There also was a question of work ethics of the other leading “tall” heroes. Dharmendra was permanently inebriated, VK ran away to Ranjeeshpuram, Shatru was forever late. Shashi became a permanent sidekick to BigB. It was due to these aspects that anyone and everyone who cud make a movie on a decent budget turned to Amitabh. The guy had a camera to his face at literally every waking moment of his life, and it was well known that he hardly slept much at night. Therefore, at every moment in that tumultous phase, Amitabh was generating returns for a wide swathe of the industry. It was not just Desai/Mehra, but a whole bunch of other producers/directors that were washing their hands in this behti gunga.
Compare that to anyone else after that. Anil/Sunju hardly gave even a respectable proportion of that ROI. And I can argue that SRK has generated the max ROI only for YRF/KHO and himself. There is no pan-industry wide effect of SRK, ie we dont have hitherto unknowns washing their hands in a SRK behti gunga.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
07:56:39 am

The irony of that action “tall hero” phase is that it took a short 5′5″” Aamir to turn the tide with QSQT in 1988. He finally swung the pendulum back to the chutkus of today. Aamir at 5′5, Salman at 5′7 and SRK at 5′8 are like the revenge of the shorties after 2 decades of bwood action heroes.
And even more ironical that this short Aamir today has given the biggest action BB since the 80s. Life comes full circle.

Aarohi 8 January 2009
07:59:17 am

There’s another related point regarding generating revenues. The chances of a producer signing SRK, Aamir or Hrithik are very less. First, they do very less number of films and whatever they do almost all are for home productions now. Akshay is also coming into this category. I don’t think this is a healthy trend for the industry.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
08:02:33 am

And talentwise, SRK is not miles ahead of anyone over here. He has his unique USPs but it is not a competitive advantage or a barometer for entry for any other new heroes. I have forever argued that the 90s were not an equanamous decade for every talented actor out there. And those talented actors who didnt find success due to lack of “financial” opportunities in the 90s have shined in the current decade. When the industry lacked money, only the production houses with easy, clean, headache-free (ie non bhai reference) access to capital did well. Mostly this was only YRF-KJO and Ghai to a certain extent. SRK was the fav for them. But when the financial spigots opened up post 2000, we get to a rising tide lifting every “talented” boat.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
08:06:54 am

Amitabh never refused anyone, because the sheer BO pull was enough to plug a movie to safety. The script or the director be damned. If Amitabh starred, that was it.
Ppl also claim that Aamir has had a well-planned, meticulous career, whereas SRK has been spontaneous. If that were true, SRK wouldve been the first mainstream hero to give a break to Gowariker,ROM,Akhtar,etc. But he didnt.

Ravi 8 January 2009
08:07:04 am

Very Nicely said Nykavi bhai, as always.

A pleasure to read any and every time.

utkal 8 January 2009
08:09:28 am

This NO 1 business is bullshit as actors are not horses. Who is the No ! star of Holywood? will smith, Johny Depp, Brad Pitt, Lepnardo, Tom Cruise , who cares? Legends like Dilip, DEv, Raj, Amitabh are not legends mesured bu Boxoffice rupess. Rajendra Kumar, Jettendra or Dharmendra might have had big boxoffice successes. Who cares? Like from among today’s crop obviously Sharukh and Amir are special. You mention their name there is an expectation. There is a buzz , an electricity about their films. They have played a variety of roles which is going to leave a a lasting impression. There films will be borrowed from DVD libraries, their acting will be discussed. Sorry, Akshay does not make the cut. Hritik, too early to say. But I doubt. Maybe, just maybe, if he tries hard, and thinks smart. But I think he is already constrained by too much BO expectations too early and that might constrain his growth as an actor.

Ravi 8 January 2009
08:22:32 am

I feel that there is a level of sincerity in what ever Hrithik does and coupled with his mighty box office clout, he could end up being considered special.

It is too early to say but Hrithik of the last few years defintely has the chance to do so.

ILG 8 January 2009
08:23:09 am

Amitabh’s success is unparallaled for many reasons.
The fact that it was so unplanned with no manipulations and machinations and calculations is one of them. It was as spontaneous as they come.
It cannot be duplicated by these carefully orchestrated movies mad moves and the formulaic proceedings.

Qalandar 8 January 2009
08:24:41 am

very well said NYkavi.

The hero of Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak is doing action; Akki is doing comedy; Salman is starring in a film set in the world of classical music; Mahesh Bhatt has become known for making skin flicks-lite.

Kalyug hai kalyug.

ILG 8 January 2009
08:26:18 am

SRK has appealed for whatever reasons ( doubt talent can be considered one of them) to a large section of young urban public along with females and that support base has been very loyal. That with meticulous planning and almost complete eschewing of anything other than very, very meticulously calculated risks is the main reason for his success.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
08:55:22 am

TheSkeptic: Mr. Kavi, Ghajini has “turned” the action tide? Really? Shouldn’t we wait a bit to spot the swelling waters? And, pray, what on earth have Sunny Deol, Akshay Kumar and Hrithik Roshan been doing all these years? Yoga? All that can be said at this time is that Aamir put all his thinking-actor credibility to undersign and legitimize – for once, for now – a return to a certain *kind* of action, say Ghayal, but with even less plausibility. Beyond this, Aamir moves onto other things, and looking at their future projects, none of the other major stars are doing anything remotely similar anytime soon. Except Salman’s Wanted, which I’m not too sanguine about.
==============================================
TS, pls re-read my comments. I never claimed that he has “turned” the action tide. All I say is that he has given the biggest action BB since the 80s. I have not seen all of Akshay/HR “action” movies as yet, but dont think they were as grim as Ghajini. Certainly not the “metal rods splitting heads open” kind.

S T R E E T 8 January 2009
10:55:00 am

come on guys…it’s one thing to over-rate but another to go out of your way…

Aamir and the action tide? I think Gadar created larger mass hysteria.. was as big if not a bigger hit.. a movie that grossed 70 cr in a market where the average hit was 15-20 cr even from the tier stars..

Second… Amitabh #1 to #10 during his reign? come on.. If one has to talk of sheer dominance, however short-lived it were, Rajesh Khanna 68-73 is unbeatable. The whole country was bowled over by him.. women couldn’t take their eyes off him.. and guys couldn’t stop emulating his style. The guy had anything between 5-7 blockbusters running in the theatres at any given time…. and not to mention that they were almost all solos. Atleast during Amitabh’s reign, even at its peak 78-83, other stars could somehow manage to deliver hits to match Amitabh’s… and there were atleast some talks of “rivalry” and competition between himand Dharam or Vinod khanna…During Khanna’sreign nothing of the sort even surface. Ofcourse post-83 Amitabh was hardly even matching other stars at the Box office. Honestly, one can make a case for Amitabh being more dominant during his era compared to SrK over his rivals… but he has nothing on Khanna on the matter.

And guys.. while making comparisons.. you gotta account for teh market in question also. For e.g. a Devdas in 02 is way more significant than a Don/KANK double whammy in 06 because teh former happened to be the only hit of teh year (among the top stars) while the latter were mathced by hits of atleast two other top stars. similarly, to say, at any given time there was a Bachchan movie playing in a theatre makes him more dominant compared to stars of today’s era.. when a movie’s screening life hardly extends beyond 5 weeks. In that case, Rajendra Kumar in his day was a bigger BO pull compared to Aamir, Salman, Hrithik.. and even SrK.. coz he had also those silver jubilees (was known as “Jubilee Kumar”) which autmoatically implies that there had to be some movie of his running at all times in a cinema.

neelu 8 January 2009
11:18:02 am

The selective goggles should be taken off now. Why is it that any SRK production is blanketed under HIS film? Was his production a successful one when he teamed up with Sivan for Asoka, Palekar for Paheli, and Farah for Main Hoon Naa? In the list of directors who washed their hands in that Ganga – one can add Abbas Mustan, Rakesh Roshan, Farhan Akhtar, Aziz Mirza! And no one should forget that Mani’s first Hindi film was with SRK and also the first film to break into the UK market big time.

Time and again one hears that he only gave hits with YRF and K Jo. Please tell me why these are successful brands! YRF’s recent history should be quite clear to NGers, and what is K Jo without SRK?

If Aamir has turned the tide toward action then what was Akshay doing in the Khiladi series? Sunny in most of his films and Hritik in Krrish and Dhoom2?

Yes, Aamir’s Ghajini has worked big time, kudos to him for going out and marketing it like it was the best thing since sliced bread! But it is one film – and what its place in the history books will be (or even the record books) remains to be seen.

saket 8 January 2009
11:30:44 am

Aamir will not only be seen in history books, 20-30 years from now (or beyond), he’ll have whole chapters devoted to him. I suspect SRK would be the footnote in one of those chapters, a Rajendra Kumar of his generation, with absolutely no longevity.

S T R E E T 8 January 2009
11:37:43 am

Also .. only on NG do I hear about QSQT and claims of how it revived the romantic genre. It wasn’t even a top 3 hit of the year. Looking through the 80’s… there’s a top romantic hit almost every single year. Starting with Love Story and Kumar Gaurav the phenomenon.. and anyone that knows anything about bollywood will tell you what a craze him and his film was.. Hrithik’s overnight stardom pales in comparison to that of Gaurav. Anyways.. it followed with another monster romantic hit from the era’s long and lone-standing romantic hero Rishi Kapoor Ek Duje Ke Liye(81) and Prem Rog, which was 82’s end biggest grosser. Also, 82’s one of only 2 blockbusters Nikaah was also a love story drama. In 83, both Sunny and Jackie Shroff debuted with what were essentially the crux of the 80’s cinema.. Romantic love story the central plots and dominating the 2 hours of screen time.. with loud drama and action encompassing the remaining 20-30 mins usually at the end (very much like yours own QSQT)… and this is also the era when the whole female stars bo pull got attention. Madhuris and Sridevis became as big a factor as some of teh top mae stars of the era.. and even in the so-called parallel cinema it were the time for the likes of Shabana Azmis. Anyways.. the trend of moving away from action follows at teh BO with Ram Teri.. and Pyar Jhukta Nahin being 2 of the 3 biggest grossers of 85. All the way.. to Lamhe when finally a top film with not a single action comes to the helm. Anyways.. QSQT comes in 88 and Maine Pyaar Kiya in 89.. I wonder which one of the two were more influencial. The latter, apart from being musical craze, was a genuine blockbuster.

goodfella 8 January 2009
11:39:58 am

I don’t think Ghajini’s impact will be lasting in any overarching sense, but it sure gives a shot in the arm to the other, more meaningful elements of Aamir’s formidable legacy for this decade; namely Lagaan, DCH, RDB, TZP – to name just the critically interesting achievements.

I think it’s not fair to under-regard SRK’s own aura and irreducible impact on Hindi cinema (good or bad) in his time. Certainly he’s no footnote. But as far as the films themselves go, I’d be hard pressed to believe that 20 years from now, people will look back on this decade and remember anything SRK did as more significant to what Aamir has done. While SRK has had big hits, Aamir has shaped a film culture.

But hey, only time will tell.

S T R E E T 8 January 2009
11:42:05 am

“I suspect SRK would be the footnote in one of those chapters, a Rajendra Kumar of his generation, with absolutely no longevity.”

no longevity? DDLJ is running in cinema even today.. a film that released almost 14 years ago.

saket 8 January 2009
11:43:26 am

In a matinee show, where couples go to make out, because it’s convenient!

ILG 8 January 2009
11:45:21 am

Given the star, probably samlaingik couples.

saket 8 January 2009
11:45:42 am

Jokes apart, I agree with Goodfella. Only, my prediction is a little harsher on SRK. But yes, time will tell.

ILG 8 January 2009
11:48:39 am

Agree, SRK will be remembered as a huge star but Aamir as the more influential and prestigious one.
Quite befittingly, we should elevate it from a foot note to a butt note.

neelu 8 January 2009
11:50:07 am

Only a die hard Aamir fan can talk that talk IMHO. Because the negative hero image was begun by SRK in Darr and solidified through several other films! It was years later that Aamir did Earth – and on NG BO success is king so let us forget Earth (my favorite Aamir film). Amir was doing inane and usual romances that were mild hits while SRK’s monster DDLJ brought the NRIs back into the Hindi cinema fold. Aamir’s DCH is an average success – so can NGers forget that one or also talk of how Swades shaped Hindi cinema including inspiring films like RDB? If Lagaan was a period romance and underdog saga (a hit) then how can one deny the impact of the underdog saga CDI that was a block buster without any of the usual BW props? The monster success of the spoof comedy OSO is also forgotten here. I am ignoring films like Dil se that actually was Mani’s entry into Hindi cinema and an iconic film in its own right.

So take off the Chopra Johar goggles and look at reality is what I say.

neelu 8 January 2009
11:52:48 am

And those couples are making out in Dostana – I believe that is why it still has a few shows in theaters. When the argument progresses into the absurd then there is nothing more left to say.

S T R E E T 8 January 2009
11:53:43 am

saket.. the mere fact that SrK was the superstar of his era makes him an undeniable part of Bollywood history and will be more a topic of talk than Aamir, Salman, Akshay and thr rest. We may enjoy Sanjeev Kumar movies and performances more today than we do a Rajesh Khanna, Dharmendra or Amitabh Bachchan but the latter trio will always surface in Bollywood history books more than the former.
Similarly even though BAchchan’s finest moments came with Hrishikesh Mukherjee, we know him best for predictable angry-young man trash of Desai and Prakash Mehra films and everytime Amitabh’s spoken of, those films come to the fore more often than not.

ILG 8 January 2009
11:54:23 am

Neelu,
I was going to point out Dil Se is not Mani’s first Hindi film. But, on second thoughts, you are right. Bombay and Roja were dubbed.

saket 8 January 2009
12:03:06 pm

Lesson in Film History — Rajesh Khanna played a serial killer who seduces and kills girls in ‘Red Rose’ in the 80s. That is true villainy, not the kind where music plays in the BG to denote that the hero was masquerading as a villain is about to die.

Lesson in Film History again — it was HAHK that brought NRI audiences, back into the Hindi cinema fold, although it is convenient to forget Bachchan’s immense popularity among worldwide audiences (concert in Wembley stadium, the first of its kind; his popularity in the middle east, up to Afghanistan and beyond) but still..

As for Dil Se and Mani, Aamir’s second film as a main lead, got him recognition from the National Award jury, for his performance. Something that SRK has never been able to achieve. Swades had hardly the impact of a RDB, though I admit it was/is a good film. CDI is a regular sports movie, and seen as an ‘underdog’ movie pales in comparison to Lagaan. In fact, isn’t a patch on Lagaan.

If I had to look at SRK’s filmography, apart from KHKN, Swades and to an extent Dil Se.., I’d be hard pressed to name films that’d find a favorable audience in the future. Though DDLJ, I think will be regarded favorably, even if it’s not my kind of film.

saket 8 January 2009
12:14:33 pm

Street: you make some valid points and I’m inclined to agree with you. But just as I see the current generation laughing at some of the old Bachchan classics like Deewar or even Trishul, I see the same kind of scrutiny being applied to the generation after — that is, instead of understanding the prevailing standards that defined cinema in the 70s, the audiences will continue to look at films through their own paradigm, where technique always gets beaten with time.

It is here that one would have to see, what would be seen as more “relevant” in the times to come. Just as “acting” has evolved from Rajendra Kumar’s days (now he’s considered one of the hammiest actors ever) to a more restrained, understated norm, the standards of tomorrow might be even more stringent, where “camp” and old school charm might find no place.

This is speculation of course, but seeing that Hindi cinema is getting more and more influenced by Hollywood, I am inclined to believe that prevalent Hollywood standards will define the aesthetics of films in India and of course film criticism. And with that, the way we view our history.

S T R E E T 8 January 2009
12:20:47 pm

On an earlier topic of discussion on this thread.. I don’t think Anil Kapoor was the top star 87-92 .. 85-90 or wateva have you. Amitabh was still the highest draw and the biggest name in the market, specifically in the trade… and the biggest of producers and investors still preferred him over the rest of the guys, even if he wasn’t really producing much result.. yes collections do matter and Bo revenue is the king in teh end.. but perceptions make a big difference as well…and until his retirement, forced or by choice, he was still considered teh king of Box office. In fact, during the 84-89 years if there were any talk of another star taking the reigns, it was Dilip Kumar and that too mostly due to Shakti and to a very limited extent.

Also.. between 86 and 92 there wasn’t really any clear-cut winner.. Jackie and Anil ran a close race in the early ends of it.. then Sunny came into the mix with bigs hits in Betaab and more importantly Ghayal. And then there was Salman with the blockbuster MPK and spate of smaller hits also followed by Dutt making most of his days before thr arrest..Ofcourse, when it all mattered most, that is 90-93 when Amitabh pulled away, Anil couldn’t capitalize and delivered some of the biggest flops of his career and perhaps the era.. Lamhe and Roop Ki Raani …led the demise of not only Sridevi but Anil Kapoor as well.none could recover.

As I said earlier, in many ways the era resembled today’s where Hrithik, Akshay and Aamir are playing neck-to-neck and matching each other.. with teh only exception being that unlike Amitabh of the 86-92 SrK is also delivering hits after hits.. making it more and more tough for them.

saket 8 January 2009
12:22:24 pm

I should also add that with Aamir, I see a successful stint as a film director on the cards. If he gets bored with acting or is deprived of choices due to the passage of time, he always has that option with him. That will certainly tilt the balance in his favor, as he has a very good eye for scripts and on the basis of TZP, one can say talent as well.

I wouldn’t want to compare him to the great Guru Dutt (and this isn’t a comparison!) but look at him. He wasn’t the most “successful” director/actor of his time, but his legend has stayed on, so much so that you’d be hard pressed to find one contemporary hindi film director (among good ones, that is) who’s not influenced by him.

Qalandar 8 January 2009
12:22:59 pm

It isn’t about how big a grosser Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak was, at the time it was very clearly understood as a breath of fresh air after years of domination by out and out action or social dramas/Jeetendra etc. With all due respect, if you think QSQT is only an “only on NG” kinda deal, that suggests to me you weren’t old enough to remember 1988. Believe me, every kid in school, from the age of 10 to 18, was talking about either this film, or “Ek do teen” that year. Can’t say about college, I was too young for that scene. More than one girl in my school in dubai used to carry aamir’s photos. Whatever money QSQT made, it was the youth wave powering it — it’s gross relative to Shahenshah is irrelevant.

A film becomes an event not just because of what it is in itself but because of what follows. Love Story was a huge hit, but had no legacy. Whereas QSQT was followed by Maine Pyar Kiya, Aashiqui, and many other love stories. Similarly, while Hum Aapke Hain Kaun was the bigger hit, Dilwaale Dulhaniya Le Jaayenge has been more influential in terms of the future course of Hindi cinema than Hum Aapke Hain Kaun. Just as Lagaan grossed a fraction of Gadar, but is the more culturally significant film. And Swades is a more culturally significant film than superhits like Dil To Pagal Hai. The list is endless.

saket 8 January 2009
12:29:31 pm

Till 1992, from Amitabh’s hey days, nobody was able to out-initial him. An Amitabh starrer was not only priced the highest, its opening was always close to 100%, on the maximum number of prints. No other contender was ever able to beat him on that front.

In fact, KKHH and Bade Miyan Chote Miyan opened on the same day in 1998, and BMCM had a better first week.

In fact, if I were to point out straight, head-to-head battles between SRK and his rivals, he has a rather poor record. The only instance where he won was in the clash with JEM. He lost to Sunny when his Indian was pitted against Asoka, lost to Amitabh in BMCM as I have mentioned above, lost to Hrithik with Mission Kashmir and now to Aamir with Ghajini, even if he didn’t release Rab Ne on the same day as the latter.

Qalandar 8 January 2009
12:29:44 pm

PS– significance does not automatically follow from “merit.” Hence predictions are so often a mug’s game. At this point it isn’t clear if Om Shanti Om will be more influential or Chak De India. Hence what will become of SRK’s oeuvre as historical matter, or what will even be regarded as his definitive oeuvre, is something that will change over time (in the late 1980s no one would have thought that the likes of Namak Halaal would have had a longer afterlife than Trishul, but IMO that’s where we are now; In 1992 it seemed Hum would be utterly forgotten, yet Hum is remembered more than many Amitabh films that were better or more successful); and with place (Ganga ki Saugandh is not a Bachchan film many will have seen in Mumbai; the answer might be different in Jhansi or Patna). It is pretty clear after a decade and a half that Dilwaale will have a permanent place in the SRK canon, but it might well be that 25 years from now Paheli is watched a lot more than Kabhi Haan Kabhi Naa…

neelu 8 January 2009
12:30:50 pm

If we are going back to lessons in history then some need to know that before Ghajini came endless action flicks from Amitabh – so what is the relevance of Ghajini? And before TZP came films like Sparsh and even Koshish! Try to compare the quality of these films from the two eras. Mother Inbdia was our first Oscar nomination! To compare Aamir’s directorial talenst to those of Guru Dutt seems liek blasphemy of the first order and nothing in his career is for the histroy books if one begins to make absurd comparisons.

goodfella 8 January 2009
12:38:58 pm

Perfectly put Q. I don’t think anyone here can write truer words than those. This is what I was trying to get across. Time is the ultimate judge, we an only make predictions at this point. Both SRK and Aamir have their place and to argue the extents and parameters of this place is pretty pointless.

S T R E E T 8 January 2009
12:40:45 pm

if anyone really cares for analogies to the past ..

Akshay today is what Dharam found himself in during mid 70’s…
Salman’s the Dharam of the mid-80s…

Hrithik situation is very similar to that of Anil Kapoor. Just as Anil Kapoor couldn’t capitalize 90-91, Hrithik failed to do the same in ‘01,’02. After KNPH, he got the best roles and the biggest directors were directing him and the most producers investing in him.. A Bharjatya film, a Ghai film.. a YRF film.. even a Karan Johar had signed him alongside SrKJust as some of the Amitabh semi-hits and commisioner earners of the late 80s were dubbed flops.. so were SrK films of the time. Baadshah was conisdered a flop.. PBDHH considered widely a disaster.. and though Josh wasn’t anything close to a flop it hardly had much takers and mentioned amongst SrK’s unsuccessful films at the time. . and to make it worse even Mohabbatein wasn’t spared. IBOS got away with an 18 cr total for this film during the time.. in case anyone remembers. But hey.. not only did all his films at the time flopped.. but the party was further spoiled for Hrithik with the arrival of Gadar and Lagaan.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
12:51:16 pm

Rajesh was indeed more dominant than Amitabh, there is no question about that. But, shortlived it sure was, and look where Kaka is today, doing Wafaa!
The comparison was betn Amitabh’s dominance to that of SRK’s. The “#1-#10″, “One-man industry” etc terms were coined by producers/directors/distributors of that time for valid reasons. These were not terms coined by the media. The guy didn’t even have support from the media, all of them dissed him at every opportunity, and tried to bring him down.

ILG 8 January 2009
12:53:19 pm

Re: it might well be that 25 years from now Paheli is watched a lot more than Kabhi Haan Kabhi Naa…

I doubt. Thats stratching a point. Other films you have highlighted atleast created a spark ( Namakhalal, Hum,GKS etc.) at the time of original release. And it is easy to appreciate their appeal. There is nothing in Paheli ( a decent film overall) in content or treatment that it would be remembered.

neelu 8 January 2009
12:56:42 pm

In talking of actors of the current era, SRK is always compared to Amitabh and I think this is not an honest comaprison. This is done by Aamir fans to generate ill-will and absurd talk relating to SRK. Why not compare Amiatbh to Aamir and see how the latter comes out? Give SRK and Aamir time to get to 60+ and then they can be compared to Amitabh.

ILG 8 January 2009
12:57:26 pm

SRK is too savvy and has better friends than RK. So, he certainly wont be doing a Wafaa in his senior years. And he has the ability to keep going for a longer time in an altered image. He will be regarded as a VERY significant part of contemporary and in course of time ‘old’ Bollywood but questions regarding merit and histrionic abilities will continue to dog his legacy.

saket 8 January 2009
12:59:32 pm

If we are going back to lessons in history then some need to know that before Ghajini came endless action flicks from Amitabh – so what is the relevance of Ghajini?

Nobody called Ghajini a trend setter of sorts. I remember calling it a “throwback” to the ‘masala’ films of yore.

And before TZP came films like Sparsh and even Koshish! Try to compare the quality of these films from the two eras.

Comparing parallel/art films to a commercial film, with a message, is par for the course? At least in my case, I compared a commercial film with a commercial star (Red Rose), just to clear the air that Baazigar isn’t the ‘historic’ moment it’s cranked up to be. And on TZP, it isn’t just a film on ‘dyslexia’, it’s about growing up, while being “different” from the norm.

ILG 8 January 2009
12:59:39 pm

And, again lets not be mistaken. Satyam’s comments were not meant to be taken literally. He was making a point about difference in Aamir’s and SRK’s legacy and he is too astute a student of Cinema not to realise SRK’s influence beginning with 90s.

ILG 8 January 2009
01:03:12 pm

TZP can compare favorably to Sparsh. As for Koshish, it had the legendary Sanjeev Kumar. So ,it wouldnt be a fair comparision. In commercial films, Sanjeev is next only to AB and may be at the same level in terms of sheer acting talent. Earlier Dilip influence notwithstanding, Sanjeev was a far superior actor than the thespian.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
01:08:00 pm

There is no comparison of Amitabh vs Aamir. The commercial success just doesnt exist in the case of Aamir. And there is no comparison of Aamir to SRK pre 2001 either.
My constant complaint is with the “throne” as people like to call it. Until 2001, the financial dynamics of bwood demanded that there BE a throne. Ek sartaj, Ek hi superstar. The spoils of war wud always go to the King. Thats because the king always demonstrated BO supremacy above all others.
Post 2001, that model stands broken. In the last few years, its not as if SRK has made more money for producers/distributors than Aamir/HR/Akshay. So to say that these guys are fighting for 2nd place is an anamoly. If all these guys are drawing huge initials, and huge grossers, how can only one of them be a king and the rest at 2nd place? The business has changed. So applying the old formulas just doesnt work any longer.

neelu 8 January 2009
01:08:43 pm

Everyone here seems to be calling Ghajini a modern trendsetter – so now it is a throwback? Then Darr and Baazigar were significant throwbacks too! Since when was Koshish parallel cinema? To my knowledge both Sanjeev and Jaya were mainstrem actors and Koshish a mainstream film. I believe Black too was about growing up being special!

Qalandar 8 January 2009
01:10:14 pm

Agreed saket, Ghajini is a throwback. And in fact, as satyam put it in his piece, it is a “mausoleum”: its existence assumes that it comes at the end of a long line of films, and I cannot recall anyone making a claim that it is a pathbreaking film.

ILG: I’m glad you raised the point about “literalism”, which does not do justice to the subtlety and thought that satyam brings to bear on these matters. My point about time and influence extends to actors as well as films, of course. Aamir need not be a better actor than X, or even a bigger star than X, to have a more vibrant legacy than X (certainly, being a great actor and a huge star — a la Amitabh — helps like anything), but these qualities are not the same as destiny and historical significance. Stated differently, Lagaan is not my favorite Hindi film this decade, nor is it IMO the greatest Hindi film this decade, nor the most profound Hindi film this decade — but IMO it is the most important Hindi film this decade from the vantage point of 2008…

saket 8 January 2009
01:10:32 pm

In talking of actors of the current era, SRK is always compared to Amitabh and I think this is not an honest comaprison. This is done by Aamir fans to generate ill-will and absurd talk relating to SRK.

Umm, NO. If you look at the history of NG, comparisons have been initiated by SRK fans themselves, and they have been none to kind to Bachchan.

saket 8 January 2009
01:10:37 pm

In talking of actors of the current era, SRK is always compared to Amitabh and I think this is not an honest comaprison. This is done by Aamir fans to generate ill-will and absurd talk relating to SRK.

Umm, NO. If you look at the history of NG, comparisons have been initiated by SRK fans themselves, and they have been none too kind to Bachchan.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
01:10:51 pm

That whole lesson on “How to Unseat a Superstar” is a throwback to a forgotten financially constrained era of bwood. That era doesnt exist. Entertainment is not the monopoly of one entity, no matter how hard one tries to annoint their favorite hero to that Superstar title.

ILG 8 January 2009
01:12:23 pm

Baazigar was more significant than Darr IMO. These two occupy an important place in SRK filmography. Less so, in Bollywood history. Baazigar atleast was one of the important earlier steps in the rise of the biggest star of 90s and early 2000S.

neelu 8 January 2009
01:14:11 pm

“There is no comparison of Amitabh vs Aamir. The commercial success just doesnt exist in the case of Aamir. And there is no comparison of Aamir to SRK pre 2001 either.”

This is a point I have been trying to make for ever on NG. And while for Aamir 2001 might have beeen a watershed year, the other actors had normal careers before and after. So the history books will treat an entire period of 6+ years as a footnote according to some. To jump from Big B in 80s to Aamir in 2001 would require an amnesia that would last a good 15 years or more!

ILG 8 January 2009
01:14:59 pm

NYKavi,
The question of the throne does not arise. It is permanently occupied by those chappals that an earlier Rediff article referred to.

neelu 8 January 2009
01:17:42 pm

As for Big B and SRK comaprisons – that was indeed begun when Don began to be planned. I can sense the frustration of certain Bachchan fans who wanted the leagcy of Bachchan’s films to pass from Pere to Fil.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
01:18:52 pm

Its funny TZP is invoked against Black.
TZP presented a contemporary treatment of afflictions. Black was not at all contemporaneous in its treatment of the afflicted individual. There are many contemporary organizations that have derived a lot from TZP, just go google news and youll see articles of various school districts in India using TZP as an eye opener for parents, and even improving their own methodologies as a direct result of pressure from parents.
Black had no such effect anywhere. It had memorable performances, but no social relevance.

And regarding the relevance of Lagaan. Everyone talks about its perf BOwise. If it had not been relevant, why is it that it has become the single most selling bwood DVD of all time, far far outpacing any others? If there were no historical relevance, why would Aamir make more from DVD sales than he did from the entire BO run of the movie? Surely, people found some pride of place in its Oscar nomination. But then, some people diss the “relevance” of Oscars when a Lagaan gets nominated, but celebrate when SRK goes to hand out an award at the Golden Globes!

ILG 8 January 2009
01:20:45 pm

And while recently ( with Ghajini ) it has become a fashion to decry homages and copies, lets not forget Baazigar was a straight lift from a rather insignificant Hollywood film : Akiss before dying.

NyKavi 8 January 2009
01:21:41 pm

The jump is not from Amitabh to Aamir. Rather, it is a legacy that goes through SRK and ends up with a pedestal which is occupied by several stars. I have said previously, SRK was the last superstar. And that era has ended.

ILG 8 January 2009
01:25:42 pm

Kavisaab,
I appreciate and largely agree with your one man mission to end the ome man rule in Bollywood. But, I would say SRK was the last ‘lone’ superstar. Hrithik,Akshay,SRK and Aamir are still superstars.

Qalandar 8 January 2009
01:25:55 pm

ILG: Om Shanti Om was also a remake of Karz in a sense, right down to the climactic performance unmasking the baddie.

ILG 8 January 2009
01:28:59 pm

Yes, Q. Unfortunately, it was as bad as Karz was good. Hope it makes sense.

ILG 8 January 2009
01:30:07 pm

BTW, A Kiss Before Dying was an award winning film. It won two awards : For the Worst Actress and the Worst Supporting Actress!

neelu 8 January 2009
01:30:10 pm

NyKavi – can you deny the social relevance of Swades? Try googling that one. So why is it not hailed on NG as some kind of ground breaking event? As for DVD sales – please show me the figures that say Lagaan was the higest DVD sales film – I never knew that. Lagaan’s Oscar nomination was brought up by me when some denied that negative roles were important, as Rajesh had done one in Red Rose!!! So then Mother India’s nomination is truly a standout, as those were the days when lobbying for Oscar nominations was unheard of.

Regarding Globe awards – when every Bachchan red carept event at a premiere or Cannes (to plug cosmetics) become worthy of posting then how is this any less an honor? It is not a red carpet at the premiere. But if people think this is meaningless, then that is their choice.

It is all a question of even handedness. If one can like the ripoff on memento that was attempted in Ghajini, then there is no call to take Baazigar to task is there? So yes – Baazigar is a ripoff, but so is Ghajini. Accept one AND accept the other. But here is a key – compare what the originals were and the derivatives! Although I would not wish viewing of AKBD on my worst enemy.

Qalandar 8 January 2009
01:30:56 pm

I like Karz a lot, but the alltime reincarnation champs would have to be Madhumati and Qudrat…the latter is an under-regarded film these days, but it had great atmosphere…

Not to mention that lata’s voice in “Tune O Rangeele…” is enough to make one wish to be born again.

neelu 8 January 2009
01:32:15 pm

Qalandar – I am thoroughly disappointed that someone like you, who I thought had knowledge of cinema and genres, says this. So for our edification can you please define ripoffs, homages, spoofs and such?

saket 8 January 2009
01:32:21 pm

I can sense the frustration of certain Bachchan fans who wanted the leagcy of Bachchan’s films to pass from Pere to Fil.

I can sense an even bigger frustration when Aamir is referred to as “midget” who can’t be convincing in “action”, per some SRK fans..

ILG 8 January 2009
01:33:57 pm

KyaKalyug hai.
Kudrat ka Qudrat bana diya. Jsut because Qalandar starts with a Q ?
Kudrat had an amazing score. But then what do you expect with The Boss scoring the music? BTW, RK wearing shorts is only slightly nightmarish than him wearing capris.

neelu 8 January 2009
01:34:53 pm

I think Deepika is more convincing in action in CCTC. This is the CCTC thread afterall.

ILG 8 January 2009
01:36:10 pm

Neelu,
To be fair to Q, OSO was ambiguous in the spoof aspect. While initially it tried to be a spoof ( rather unfunny one, IMHO ) the second half saw a more conventional story format which was a brazen and a poor Karz copy

saket 8 January 2009
01:38:23 pm

One should not stop at Ghajini then. Let’s compare RBGG to Sri 420, Yes Boss to ‘The Apartment’, Josh to ‘West Side Story’, Devdas to Bimal Roy’s version, Darr to Cape Fear, Badshah to Nick of Time. And so on.

ILG 8 January 2009
01:39:08 pm

And OSO to Karz.

saket 8 January 2009
01:39:50 pm

OSO climax is a straight lift from Madhumati. So it’s not just Karz that was copied/referenced

Qalandar 8 January 2009
01:41:00 pm

Neelu: hence my use of “…in a sense” in my comment above. The Hindi Ghajini is “simply” a remake of the Tamil Ghajini. Why the disappointment?

[Om Shanti Om is part-homage, but not to a film, and not to Karz, but to a tradition. It is also part-spoof. And it is in its second half a rather straight remake of Karz, with teh first half's spoofy elements excised the closer one gets to the ending. Ghajini is a remake (of the Tamil film, not of Memento, from which the Tamil film plagiarized certain aspects), as is Dayavan of Nayakan. Dil Hai Ki Maanta Nahin is a rip-off of a rip-off, although Chori Chori is IMO superior to It Happened One Night. A Kiss Before Dying I have never seen, so won't comment.]

I find examples work way better than definitions in these things

ILG: LOL. Given that the convention among us Urduwaalahs is that words that begin with the the guttural “k” are written with “Q” (in earlier days it would be denoted by a . under the “ka” in Hindi, although that convention has pretty much died out), and since the “k” in qudrat is that “k”, I feel justified in applying my qalandari magic…

Though I guess I’m not consistent, since I don’t say Qarz or Ghadar…

ILG 8 January 2009
01:41:04 pm

OSO was so bad that I am sure it was even a bad copy of its original script.

satyam 8 January 2009
01:46:45 pm

The Bachchan legacy is very much on. Not to worry! The anxiety this raises again and again is proof certain it’s on. LOL!

NyKavi 8 January 2009
01:47:18 pm

Neelu,
here are the links to Lagaan DVD sales:
http://www.financialexpress.co.....es/206016/

And the above is just the Indian sales. I never cud get a figure for overseas sales, except a small sample. amazon.co.uk has sold almost 25000 DVDs of Lagaan. Im sure if we extrapolated that to all of US/UK and abroad, at least another 100,000 DVDs have been sold abroad.
Aside from this, Lagaan is also a very heavily rented DVD from the likes of blockbuster/netflix etc. An Oscar tag carries a lot of curiosity for crossover audiences too.

jayshah 8 January 2009
02:37:39 pm

“An Oscar tag carries a lot of curiosity for crossover audiences too”

Very much so. Just any nominated film in the foreign film category will get alot of eyeballs from cross over audiences.

neelu 8 January 2009
02:54:19 pm

Qalandar – the spoof element runs through all of OSO, and the homage is quite clear – the film starts with the making of Karz by Subhash Ghai! Next people will call JBDY a ripoff of Blowup! The ripoff (=unacknowledged theft) is easy to separate from an acknowledged homage. For those lisying other SRK ripoffs – I am sure a similar list can be generated for Aamir films, and indeed even Bachchan films beginning with the mother of them all – Sholay! So the point is? That those who accept ripoffs like Ghajini (yes – the remake of a real ripoff of Memento) should not be pointing fingers. Consistency is the key here. It is also funny to see how OSO is dismissed as “so bad” while Ghajini is loved by the same people. Can we agree then that tastes difffer? Ghajini for me was a bad copy of a ripoff.

As for those highest seling DVD news – one can find amny similar form other sources – and I believ none of them and am skeptical about NyKavi’s too!

http://www.televisionpoint.com/news2006/newsfullstory.php?id=1150539077
http://www.yashrajfilms.com/Ab.....ode=PRO002
“Infact, “Dhoom” has been the highest selling DVD/VCD title of all times in India ” LOL

ILG 8 January 2009
04:45:44 pm

Yes,Neelu. Our tastes differ. Vastly. To oyur disadvantage. There cannot be a wrong opinion. But there iscertianly poor taste.

neelu 8 January 2009
04:48:15 pm

That is so absurd it does not merit a reply.

Tony Montana 8 January 2009
04:57:43 pm

OSO altered my life. I now believe in reincarnation. I do believe that in my next life I’ll have sex with Juhi, Tabu, Shilpa, Urmila etc. The movie has inspired me on so many levels. I wish everyone else felt the same.

ILG 8 January 2009
05:08:13 pm

TM,
LOL.
A truly life changing experience!

Ravi 8 January 2009
07:03:45 pm

Don’t loose hope Tony bro, who knows you might get lucky in this life itself, just do it.

neelu 8 January 2009
07:47:16 pm

And don’t forget the tattoes, just in case you do not get what you want and suffer from short TUMM memory loss due to the trauma.

Gabber 8 January 2009
08:51:25 pm

changing my prediction –

Opening weekend: 25 Cr
Week 1: 35 Cr
Total: 55 Cr

Gabber 8 January 2009
08:52:06 pm

and here goes the 200th comment.

RAJ 8 January 2009
11:53:12 pm

Saket,

“”Aamir will not only be seen in history books, 20-30 years from now (or beyond), he’ll have whole chapters devoted to him. I suspect SRK would be the footnote in one of those chapters, a Rajendra Kumar of his generation, with absolutely no longevity.”

You are kidding right….If today a DDLJ and Laggan are played on TV channels …7/10 people would watch DDLJ against that of Laggan…Mark my word on this..it would be same even after 10 yeras and 209 years…

Same goes for RNBDJ and Lagan…

Longevioty is a perception and you have a absolutely wrong and misplaced perception about SRKs longevity…

RAJ 8 January 2009
11:56:15 pm

Tony,

In the contrary Laggan cganged my life..It inspired me to waear dhotis instead of Trousers and use country made balls than Cricket balls.It also inspired me have sex with phirangis and use it for my publicity…

S T R E E T 10 January 2009
01:17:03 pm

“The comparison was betn Amitabh’s dominance to that of SRK’s. The “#1-#10″, “One-man industry” etc terms were coined by producers/directors/distributors of that time for valid reasons.”

Just as the term “only SrK and sex sells” was thrown around during 2002. Trust me if we gonna paraphrase every one of such comments and use them as gospels on BO talks.. then SrK will fill up books for you. Not to take anything away from the guy, but the media has made mountains of his success mounds all along. So, similarly, saying AMitabh #1 to 10 during his era.. makes little sense when you actually look into the numbers and the success of the movies. He didn’t have all that many more hits.. nor did his hits were all that bigger than the rest of stars of his era. Yes, he was ahead of the others, and quite convincingly so too, but pales in comparison to Khanna’s dominance during his superstar years.. and I can, if cared to, make a valid case for SrK dominance edging him as well, specially 95-2004 period and I’m sure if you have been long enough on NG then you prolly seen them posts too.

S T R E E T 10 January 2009
01:20:50 pm

After the relatively insignificant QSQT being given the credit of reviving the romantic ggenre in Bollywood, we have another “only on NG” moment on this thread… “OSO is a rip-off while Ghajini is a throwback…” lol….wow you guys crack me up.

nothing personal against the ones who made those remarks… but I just couldn’t help it there.

S T R E E T 10 January 2009
01:34:29 pm

“With all due respect, if you think QSQT is only an “only on NG” kinda deal, that suggests to me you weren’t old enough to remember 1988. Believe me, every kid in school, from the age of 10 to 18, was talking about either this film, or “Ek do teen” that year.”

lol… I love arguments that fail to prove much on facts and goes with “Beleive me… I know”. Just to counter that..yes I was too young to remember that.. but I did ask my cousins and all them go “QSQT….what QSQT?”.
And as I said earlier.. it wasn’t a film thing.. but a gradual change from action to romance.. and it may not have necessarily started with Love Story.. but not only all BO indicators but a look into the structure of most films thereby do show that the ball did start rolling with meomentum after the tremendous success of that film (which too was driven by youth alone). And as I said.. QSQT was not all that different from superior hits that preceded it (Hero, Betaab) or ones that followed it (MPK, Saajan)… where romance-action ratio and sequence in the film goes.. or for that matter the basic plot is concerned.

And BELEIVE ME… having surfed bollywood forums for a while.. only on NG have I come across the notion that QSQT was all that.

S T R E E T 10 January 2009
01:57:24 pm

Anywys.. Aamir will forever be known in Bollywood and definitely get a mention in history books for the star actor with highest number of rip-offs in his kitty. .. (not incluing remakes like Ghajini)

hey… I mean rip-offs when I say rip-offs.. we are talking of scene-to-scene copies… to the exten that he even tries to act like and imitate the original actors in them films..

neelu 10 January 2009
02:12:53 pm

While at the same time denigrating the originals – I recall his comments about Memento on his blog.

S T R E E T 10 January 2009
02:17:57 pm

lol.. I remember that. He said Memento was too confusing a film… and couldnt understand much of what was going on. What a retard!

JustaFan 10 January 2009
03:19:25 pm

It looks like Ghajini’s box office has really put the SRK fans in depression. I told some that it would happen. Now all their hope is with My Name is Khan. Good Luck fellas!!!! I hope you will come out of it (until 3 Idiots will put you back in depression)

neelu 10 January 2009
03:30:23 pm

Actually SRK fans are happy that Aamir fans have come out of a 20 year depression – those that survived the experience I mean

JustaFan 10 January 2009
04:57:44 pm

Yes…Aamir fans went in depression right after QSQT, right thru DIL, DHKMN, JJWS, HHRPK, RANGEELA, RH, ISHQ, GHULAM, SARFAROSH and then after LAGAAN all the way until GHAJINI.

Yup….very depressing indeed!!!!! On the other hand, SRK just scored big with OSO last year and it looked like RNBDJ, a tailor made SRK blockbuster in the making, would break that record. Instead, Ghajini just bulldozed it and everthing else making it the biggest grosser in Indian Cinema and is about to become the first movie to cross the 100 CR mark.

Let’s hope MNIK does not become another typical 80 CR grosser for SRK….the bar has been raised much much higher.

satyam 10 January 2009
05:01:25 pm

Justafan: I assume when people talk about remakes they either don’t know or desire to forget that OSO and Don are also, just perhaps, just maybe.. remakes!

Street: doesn’t your writing offend you when you’re sober?!

satyam 10 January 2009
05:04:11 pm

Ghajini is a film which had no big banner attached to it. Not even a known actress. It creates box office history in every sense and beats every big banner in God knows how many years!

The partisans however are still at it trying to deny Aamir what pretty much the whole Hindi film universe is giving him! One shouldn’t be annoyed though. The partisans are more deserving of one’s contempt and disgust. Because no one’s that delusional. Which means it’s just about bad faith.

satyam 10 January 2009
05:05:07 pm

All the BOI fans have had themselves knee capped with BOI going all out to support Ghajini in a big way. LOL!

satyam 10 January 2009
05:05:37 pm

Some even want credit for accepting Ghajini is a blockbuster. LOL!

satyam 10 January 2009
05:06:56 pm

Justafan: hey Aamir’s had only one failure in this entire decade (MP.. that too with the biggest initial of its time). But this of course means ‘depression’ for the Aamir fans!

JustaFan 10 January 2009
05:09:25 pm

STREET is the Ann Coulter of Naachgaana!!!! He has to say something offending and controversial to stay in the news

JustaFan 10 January 2009
05:13:55 pm

the most frustrating thing about being an Aamir fan is that you never know he might just take off 2 or 3 years if he doesn’t find anything to his liking. The guy simply does not care for money (he has more then enough any way) and he is never in a rush to accept anything no matter how good it is…

neelu 10 January 2009
05:25:56 pm

It is actually amusing to me to see that the “knowledgeable” on NG do not know how to distinguish a spoof from a homage from a ripoff. One involves legally prosecutable theft – the other two do not. I suggest a decent dictionary or WIKIPEDIA! But then when was anything on NG about honesty?

neelu 10 January 2009
05:29:46 pm

In case theft/plagiarism is LOST on people I suggest viewing the following (short but quite illustrative):

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=t3v-zYxFFvM

NyKavi 10 January 2009
10:38:08 pm

“…similarly, saying AMitabh #1 to 10 during his era.. makes little sense when you actually look into the numbers and the success of the movies. He didn’t have all that many more hits.. nor did his hits were all that bigger than the rest of stars of his era….”
This too is an “only on NG” comment.
Anyway, to each his own BO God.

Qalandar 10 January 2009
11:13:47 pm

Re: “But then when was anything on NG about honesty?”

I get tired of NG-members dissing NG itself. You too are a part of NG, and help make it whatever it is (as do I). This “only on NG” business has, as I’ve been saying for years, a bit tiresome and inaccurate, given that Street, you, johnnybrutal are as much NG as anyone else (the implicit assumption of these statements is that those one disagrees with are more “representative” of NG than oneself). So either you are including yourself among the ranks of dishonest, or are excluding yourself from the ranks of NG. Neither move is necessary.

sandy 11 January 2009
12:10:23 am

Q: I don’t know if one should ‘read’ anything here but I just saw Akshay speaking on Aaj Tak how he’s acquired the ‘bad’ habit of delivering hits and often wonders what’s the big deal if one of his films flops. I found it a bit odd that such a statement comes from him when one of his biggest films is up for release. In any case, the media is already pitching this as a Aamir-Akki fight for BO supremacy, so CCTC is definitely going to get counted.

neelu 11 January 2009
12:17:09 am

Q – I too get tired of being deliberately misunderstood. You want an example? Fine!

“Justafan: I assume when people talk about remakes they either don’t know or desire to forget that OSO and Don are also, just perhaps, just maybe.. remakes!”

I thought that the discussion we had about homage, spoof vs. plagiarism would be here for members to see. So what is this if not deliberate dishonesty in all it implies about plagiarism vs. remakes (official) or spoofs/homages? Am I to understand that the member who made this comment is unaware of these implications?

Now if someone says they have no problems with thievery (be it first hand or second hand) then that is another issue.

sandy 11 January 2009
12:17:52 am

““With all due respect, if you think QSQT is only an “only on NG” kinda deal, that suggests to me you weren’t old enough to remember 1988. Believe me, every kid in school, from the age of 10 to 18, was talking about either this film, or “Ek do teen” that year.”

A truer comment cannot be made. The Tezzab- QSQT craze was unmatchable in the late 80s.

neelu 11 January 2009
12:21:26 am

In 1981 K Balachnader made an iconic film called Ek Duuje ke Liye – I believe that was the 80s too.

sandy 11 January 2009
12:23:26 am

QSQT really was a risky film that time because it was mostly action heroes ruling the roost. Yes, there was Betaab and Love Story but this was in the early 80s (82-84?). After that, it was back to the Mithun action and disco dance. Then you had Vinod Khanna and Dharmendra doing their action bit. Romances were really losing flavour when QSQT came in 88. It was a small film with newcomers but really changed the tide. The fact that hordes of love stories with newcomers started to be made again explains the impact it had. But I’d really credit this revival to both Tezaab and QSQT – because essentially both were love stories. Another thing that got a huge fillip was music, which saw its worst period also in the 80s.

neelu 11 January 2009
12:33:16 am

History needs to be viewed with a longer term view so it does not start with certain artificial “watershed” moments. In fact Ek Duje ke Liye was Kamal’s first Hindi film if I remember correctly, and Rati was a relative unknown. The hysteria of this film was such that parents were afraid to let their teenage children see the film for the “effect” it would have on them! This was followed by Kamal and Sri’s Sadma – another love story that was unusual and even more sad than the lovers killing themselves in the emptiness it invoked! QSQT follows the EDKL graph almost entirely. No one should get me wrong, I like QSQT very much. But it was following the footsteps of a film that was like a sucker punch to the stomach in effect.

utkal 11 January 2009
01:36:42 am

STREET, Amir hasn’t had a flop since 2005. Mangal Pandey is nowhere near a flop. Show me one BO site that categorizes it as a flop. and he has made hits of material no one else could. And he has made the films that have been the most talked about, most loved, most admired. No 1 status is never about BO figures, Ghajini or no Ghajini. World’s No 1 author is not necessarily the one who has sold most books. No ! artist is not necessarily the one that has sold most records.

neelu 11 January 2009
01:57:24 am

Utkal – the world of Hindi cinema or the Khans did not start in 2005, it is as simple as that. As far as I recall they began their careers in the late 80s and early 90s.

devesh 11 January 2009
02:45:25 am

Thats a valid point Neelu. and the Probm with Aamir’s career is that 4 years he had after DCH without any movie. Its worse than hrithik’s one movie an year!

JustaFan 11 January 2009
05:28:46 am

“neelu: “Justafan: I assume when people talk about remakes they either don’t know or desire to forget that OSO and Don are also, just perhaps, just maybe.. remakes!”

The comment was made by Satyam, not yours truly.

RAJ 11 January 2009
06:40:30 am

Utkal,

From 2005 Aamir has acted in 5 movies…Two Blockbustres and two Superhits and one avg ( If MP is not a flop in your Book0

The total BO collection of these 5 movies worldwide is 300 crores in India and Approx 105 crores overseas.That makes it 405 crores in 5 movies at an avg of 81 cr per movie..

Now lets compare with that with SRK…From 2005 he has acted in 6 movies…3 Blockbusters ,2 hits and one avg…

Total BO collection in India is 358 crores and overseas 183 crores.So total colection wordwide is 541 crores making it 90 crores per movie…

During this period Aamir has TZP and RDB as So called prestige hits where as SRK has CDI…

So even From 2005 ,i dont think Aamir in anyway surpassed SRK ….

But yes they are neck to neck on all counts…

saket 11 January 2009
07:03:52 am

The “One Man Industry” sobriquet was coined by the legendary French new wave director, Francois Truffaut.

“Only Sex and SRK Sells” comment was made by Neha Dhupia.

Great going in comparing the two, for credibility sakes. Another one of thos “Only @ NG” moments, alas

ILG 11 January 2009
07:28:31 am

LOL, Saket. Have to take into consideration the respective class of those two.
One needs a sobriquet from Francios Truffaut and one from Neha Dhupia.
What can be more telling.
BTW, love the way SRK’s fans get tangled in the webs of their own making.
One would think they will learn and not go where it is not advisable for them but alas………

ILG 11 January 2009
07:29:43 am

BTW, Lets stop saying an NG only moment. Q will be nakhush. Lets just say SRK fans’ only moment as they are same everywhere.

rockstar 11 January 2009
07:33:27 am

more recenly neha dhupia appeared on a song shouting singh is king to

utkal 11 January 2009
07:38:46 am

RAJ, your , neck to neck’ assessment is just about right. Amir has created an aura about himself along with credible BO pull. And Sharukh too has done it in his own ways. Amir has a better set of films. But Shahrukh has put things in balance somewhat with Swades and CDI. Yes in my assessment hey are pretty even now. Now any film from the two are anticipated keenly by al Hindi film lovers.

RAJ 11 January 2009
07:54:44 am

Utkal,

I agree to a large extendt…

Funily enough I do not find some Aamir gans other here at NG better than SRK fans either…It seems they are so mentally fucked by Aamir mania that they have lost their objectivity…

They have lost their balls to admit the truth about other actors…
They pretend to be intelligent but the truth is they are some foolish idiots out here…These are nothing but mentally malfunctioned individual with their inteliigenve raped from both ends…

Foot Note::::This is not meant to all Aamir fans but for that of inteligent variety

RAJ 11 January 2009
07:55:07 am

Utkal,

I agree to a large extendt…

Funily enough I do not find some Aamir gans other here at NG better than SRK fans either…It seems they are so mentally fucked by Aamir mania that they have lost their objectivity…

They have lost their balls to admit the truth about other actors…
They pretend to be intelligent but the truth is they are some foolish idiots out here…These are nothing but mentally malfunctioned individual with their inteliigence raped from both ends…

Foot Note::::This is not meant to all Aamir fans but for that of inteligent variety

rockstar 11 January 2009
08:00:38 am

Funily enough I do not find some Aamir gans other here at NG better than SRK fans either…It seems they are so mentally “fucked by Aamir mania that they have lost their objectivity…

They have lost their balls to admit the truth about other actors…
They pretend to be intelligent but the truth is they are some foolish idiots out here…These are nothing but mentally malfunctioned individual with their inteliigence raped from both ends…

Foot Note::::This is not meant to all Aamir fans but for that of inteligent variety”

typical srk fan

generalization and abusing others

rockstar 11 January 2009
08:04:39 am

by shouting abuses from no where some people are indicating their current mental status actualy

anyway rapping of some here is much is better than so called raping of some dickheads

Tony Montana 11 January 2009
09:26:43 am

lets take it easy guys

Aamir is the best

Qalandar 11 January 2009
12:54:03 pm

Re: “Q – I too get tired of being deliberately misunderstood. You want an example? Fine!”

Completely different issue. Rather than calling out person X, why say “Oh dear, only on NG”? [I don't single you out; many others do this too. Of course they have every right to, I just don't see it as constructive, because it suggests, as I said above, that one is oneself somehow less a member of NG than whoever one is referring to; and/or simultaneously one absolves oneself of any responsibility for whatever is seen as "wrong" with NG. We and no one else have made NG whatever it is or isn't, and every member is an equal "stakeholder." The suggestion that somehow NG members are dominated by one point of view is simply wrong: one has only to look at every long discussion thread.]

neelu 11 January 2009
01:29:49 pm

Q – the dominant view point in NG has to be taken into account. I AM a member of NG and thus persist in applying some correction factors. It does not help if every comment is rebutted by one person saying “but I never believed that”! I am talking general perceptions here.

jayshah 11 January 2009
01:37:14 pm

The “on NG” jibe is condescending. Because it is used in a manner to suggest NG is “not in reality”. The question I ask for people who say this is then why would you be on a forum that you believe was not surrounded by realism? You are deliberately in a place of make believe and fantasy out of your own choice?

neelu 11 January 2009
01:39:31 pm

Jay – it is less condescending than people calling SB the gutter of NG and then coming there. Anyway – you too deliberately miss the point. Is that any worse that saying Aamir fans are this and SRK fans are that and Bachchan fans are bla bla? I am trying to avoid those kinds of pejorative references.

jayshah 11 January 2009
01:43:01 pm

It is not a question of this is a crime and that is a crime. My point here is the “jibe” of “only on NG” is condescending.
There is no point picking off all the other bad points on NG and then using that to justify claims that the “only on NG” jibe is lesser.
That’s like saying murder is a bigger crime than burglary – it still doesn’t mean burglary gets a free ride!

neelu 11 January 2009
01:46:39 pm

Did you call out at those other crimes? Silence and hypocrisy is the bigger crime IMHO. And yes – all are crimes, but human being forgive lesser crimes more readily than the big ones.

S T R E E T 11 January 2009
01:48:39 pm

Saket.. Last time I checked Neha Dhupia was a Bolywood insider while the French guy an outsider.. I wonder whose words be more accurate.

Also.. for most people outside India.. Bollywood starts and ends with SrK.. well at least it’s been like that for past decade and a half.

jayshah 11 January 2009
01:57:32 pm

As you once said neelu – silence is not a sign of guilt. Just because one does not “call out” those crimes does not mean one “supports” them.

i.e. I don’t have the time or inclination to support every positive cause in the world or belittle every war/terrorist attack that takes place. My silence should not be a sign that I am “for” it or “against” it. Innocent until proven guilty is the law as far as I am concerned and you can’t call me a hypocrit for being silent.

I turn the same question around on you and say you have belittled and name called people yourself on the forum. Many others have. Sometimes I will too. No one person on the forum has consistently “called out” those crimes each time – so are we all hypocrits? Only rks as moderator will consistently “call out” and to put it clearly he has the power to do so!

Again I re-iterate the “on NG” jibe is silly. Again those making the “jibe” are themselves then living in the same fantasy they claim NG to be. That could be termed as more foolish – why put oneself in that position?

Like Qalander says – every member has the power to make NG what they want. Some call for more original writing, then do it. Some want jokes and fun and then do it. Street does it all the time he turns up here – “only on NG this will happen” etc…bla bla bla bla bla…if its only on NG – plain and simple why the heck you on here?!?!? Go back to reality whatever that maybe for you!

jayshah 11 January 2009
02:04:41 pm

So neelu – feel free to be the torch bearer of the forum to “call out” ALL crimes – little or small. You can be the judge of what is a big crime or small crime. Have fun, draw up a list and tell us who the main culprits are. We can all point fingers at them and punish them.

neelu 11 January 2009
02:11:24 pm

No – since you and Q called ME out, I think you are the ones drawing a line! I am honored to be the one you chose to call out all the time. Now let us see you draw a line and shown us where it falls! I will then toe it – I promise.

“Again I re-iterate the “on NG” jibe is silly. Again those making the “jibe” are themselves then living in the same fantasy they claim NG to be. That could be termed as more foolish – why put oneself in that position?”

If we applied the above to politics, the world environmental situation, violence, etc etc – we would be lining up to be the first on any space colonization mission.

Qalandar 11 January 2009
02:14:34 pm

The Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak discussion is a good example: there is certainly a debate to be had on how significant this film is or isn’t in terms of industry trends. In my comment above I tried to show why this film is in a different category from the likes of a Betaab or a Love Story, making a more general point about what amkes a film “matter” in terms of influence — i.e. not intrinsic merit as much as “legacy.” One could disagree with it, as more than one person on this thread does; but it is not a constructive response IMO to say (as Street did) that “only on NG” do people think Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak was an important film. That is akin to a “get out of jail free” card, and over the years I have seen it used to parry every sort of argument without engaging with it. [For instance, I was told in 2006 that "only on NG" was akshay kumar considered a bigger star than Salman Khan. If it was true then, then NG surely was ahead of the curve. I read many times that "only on NG" was abhishek bachchan considered a good actor. And sometimes it is used to set up a straw man argument, distorting others' positions: e.g. "only on NG" do people think aamir khan is the greatest thing since sliced bread. and so on.] I stress, my objection is not to anyone saying it, but that it doesn’t advance the ball, as “only on NG” is the magical formulation that can address any situation, rather than engaging with the particulars of the discussion at hand. That is why it isn’t a case of generalizations — “only on NG” is a generalization like “aamir fans are x” etc. — but that isn’t really why I object to it. I object because it enables those who wield it to duck the question.

Qalandar 11 January 2009
02:19:57 pm

Neelu: there is no line to “toe”, since every one is free to say “only on NG” (and I am just as free to object as you are to use it). I initially called you out because “only on NG” affects me (as a NGite), and hence I spoke out because I don’t see it as being useful. Similarly, “SRK fans are x” presumably affects you — and you do speak out on that (you don’t when abhishek is being bashed, presumably beacuse it doesn’t affect you much), as well you should. I’m not sure I follow where the inconsistency is coming in (I don’t think manoj is inconsistent for defending Hrithik but not abhi, just as imgr8 is not inconsistent for defending Ranbir Kapoor but not Shahid Kapoor; that’s what everyone does)? It would be a different issue if I were saying that the only person who makes generalizations is you — in that case you could fairly say that I was being inconsistent (of course I haven’t said any such thing). But that is a very different situation from you suggesting that one is inconsistent unless one objects to EVERY sweeping generalization. You are confusing two distinct issues here. As a SRK fan you have an issue with a generalization that says “SRK fans are x” — more power to you when you challenge it. As a NGite I have an issue with NGites going around suggesting that NG is delusional — more power to me when I challeneg it.

neelu 11 January 2009
02:25:52 pm

Q – in my comment I tried to show why QSQT was not a trend-starter as EDKL and Sadma came before it! So I fail to see the point of that example. As for my “only on NG comment” – I gave you a specific example – again, for you to chose to ignore it is in my opinion deliberately obtuse. I think you have the intelligence to see why I used the “NG” reference too, but if you will ignore that, I can see your wanting to not expose some people and to deliberately bait me instead.

So please feel free to draw a line – and let us see who all toe the line and stay on the side of honesty and reason, and who on the side of specious arguments and lack of logic.

NG is all of us – and when we portray some kind of “collective” wrong response then it needs to be called out! When people called Rohit on why the banner (NG’s pictorial face) was so heavily Bachchan focused and ignored completely some current and past icons – Jay was the first to throw a jibe at praying to the photos of GODS! If NG is a collective voice of all of cinema then that is an unwarranted and childish one to throw.

Enough from me on this.

neelu 11 January 2009
02:28:16 pm

I mean if NG is a collective voice or representation of all of Indian cinema….

Qalandar 11 January 2009
02:34:15 pm

The example I used was a good one: because I specifically made clear I was disagreeing with what Street said; and didn’t use a generalization without taking names. It makes sense that I did not use your comment re: QSQT, since you in fact gave reasons.

I think I do have the intelligence to see why you use the “only on NG” reference: it seems to me that you use it instead of referring to certain people whom you actually intend to mean. My point was that by doing so one automatically ascribes some kind of hierarchy while absolving oneself of responsibility for the direction of NG. Since we are all equal members, I don’t see it as constructive.

Re: “I can see your wanting to not expose some people and to deliberately bait me instead.”

I object to this comment, because you are accusing me of bad faith here — i.e. according to you I am not actually disagreeing with what you said but am simply “deliberately bait[ing]” you. This is manifestly untrue: I simply object to the “only on NG” line of argument, am saying so openly and giving my reasons for it; and am doing so in a civil manner. Where is the “bait[ing]“?

jayshah 12 January 2009
01:51:02 am

“Jay was the first to throw a jibe at praying to the photos of GODS! If NG is a collective voice of all of cinema then that is an unwarranted and childish one to throw.”

LOL – that was a joke not a jibe…next time I will put a disclaimer for you. The pictorials have been an ongoing issue – at least a year. Many know about it…I believe if I remember correctly they started putting them up alphabetically and stopped at “A” or “B” (I might be wrong) or something like that. Seriously speaking do you really think those pictorials are up there like that “intentionally”? I give Rohit and technicians more credit than that…less credit for not fixing it!

On QSQT here is a video talking about the music of the 60 years post Independance…both Farhan and Javed Akhtar speaking here. Note what they say on QSQT – not just the music but also the significance of the movie and the time it came. This is just one example.

Note, not too many fond memories of the 80’s for these two and many have said this is amongst one of the industry’s low points in terms of films and music. In Farhan’s own words “really the change in the 80’s happened with QSQT” … the music in his words was a “catalyst” for change of what happened in the 80’s vs the 90’s. Then watch Javed talk about the film itself.

This is not me saying what they are saying is the bible. But my own opinion on QSQT is very similar. Not just QSQT but also MPK which came a year later. Think after this two twin success, films like Aashiqui, Dil, DHKMN, Saajan arrived afterwards…and really the romance genre got a kick-start…

…simply, I echo Javed/Farhan’s sentiments on QSQT.

Wiki itself says “Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak is a landmark movie in the history of Indian Cinema. Its Filmfare Award-winning music, romantic storyline, and young actors shifted the momentum away from the violent and aging ethos that was prevalent in the films at the time. It also made melodious tunes once again popular over the 80’s trend of Disco and Breakdance influenced soundtracks which was launched by another landmark movie Qurbani in 1980. Indiatimes Movies ranked the movie amongst the Top 25 Must See Bollywood Films”

Again that very much echoes exactly what Farhan and Javed were getting at…and very much my opinion on QSQT and also MPK at the time. Both films broke loosely speaking industry norms and trends and might I add both films made overnight superstars of Aamir and Salman much like KNPH made of Hrithik.

jayshah 12 January 2009
01:53:06 am

Javed & Farhan on music of 80’s

The video itself

sv 12 January 2009
10:45:43 am

QSQT importance is exaggerated.It was maine pyar kiya had more importance and influence.

S T R E E T 12 January 2009
10:45:50 am

ok… here’s another.. dare to say… “only on NG” moment.

Aamir became an overnight “superstar” with QSQT…. great..did I read that right? Aamir a superstar in 1988.

Anyways.. I just dont get this whole QSQT thing. It wasn’t any different from some of the other films of its time… and it wasn’t nearly as successful as those other films mentioned. So how can it get be attributed with kickstarting some trend… Bollywood’s shift from masala action of the 70’s to the romantic dramas of the 90’s was a gradual one.. and a number of highly successful films can be creditted with pushing that wagon.. QSQT, for its love on NG, was too small and too insignificant a film to get much , if any, credit in the process.
If anything, the emergence of female “superstar” in the 80’s gets more credit.. forcing writers, and directors to make films that revolve around their characters.. or atleast give them substancial roles.. you couldn’t do that with action movies.. so that’s why all those acion love stories dominated the mid to late 80’s… untiil the 90’s when the Khan became heavyweight stars and Bollywood could make romatics revolving around male superstars who specialized in the romance genre.

neelu 12 January 2009
10:58:06 am

@Q – “I object to this comment, because you are accusing me of bad faith here — i.e. according to you I am not actually disagreeing with what you said but am simply “deliberately bait[ing]” you. This is manifestly untrue: I simply object to the “only on NG” line of argument, am saying so openly and giving my reasons for it; and am doing so in a civil manner. Where is the “bait[ing]“?”

Because you saw why I said only on NG – and you chose to ignore the main issue – that of homage vs. copying but picked on the NG bit. That is baiting. When did I say it was uncivil? You are always a perfect gentleman, unlike many on this board!

@Jay – No that comment about the banner was not made in fun. But you can rewrite you intention now. Would it help if I said my “only on NG” comment was a joke too? More important – would you believe it? As for WIKI on QSQT – I am sure the EDKL people did not care enough to edit the WIKI. The difference – EDKL was a BB success and the trailblazer. The songs of EDKL were mesmerizing and one a National award winner – so I will make my own judgment about the music and ignore Farhan and Javed for now. And we all know about Sadma – at least those of us who watch old cinema do.

Qalandar 12 January 2009
10:58:44 am

Only on NG:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qayamat_Se_Qayamat_Tak

http://movies.indiatimes.com/S.....urpg-5.cms

I am not overstating the importance of Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak; I am resisting attempts to downplay its importance without justification. Interesting that Times of India picked it for its list of 25 (like all lists one could critique this, the point is that this is hardly an “only on NG” moment when one of the country’s most prominent newspapers is picking it) as far back as 2005.

Qalandar 12 January 2009
11:00:06 am

Aside: We should be talking about the Tamil originals for Ek Duje Ke Liye and Sadma. Someone with better knowledge on this can correct me, but I believe these were remakes of Tamil films?

neelu 12 January 2009
11:01:26 am

And that proves? That QSQT essentially remade a remake of a Tamil film?

Qalandar 12 January 2009
11:05:59 am

It proves nothing: it was an aside meant to give credit to the Tamil films concerned (assuming I am right about the remake bit; I know am re: sadma, but not 100% sure on Ek Duje Ke Liye), as many Hindi film viewers on NG might not be aware of the history.

Qalandar 12 January 2009
11:07:31 am

Re: “You are always a perfect gentleman, unlike many on this board!”

Thank you. Although one word, truly awesome in its significance and incredible in its power, suffices to dispel such notions:

Rimmi.

sv 12 January 2009
11:08:46 am

QSQT is a love story,just like the film love story in 1981.The story is also similar.But aamir khan’s stardom after lagaan made some people think it is a landmark movie.
QSQT was the begining of the audience shift from the action of the 1970s,1980s to romantic films.And maine pyar kiya follwed in 1989.Then dil,saajan,and then a lot more.
Anil Kapoor’s losing his super stardom in 1993 is because of the rise of the romantic films in 1990s.
That is indiatimes own view.

Qalandar 12 January 2009
11:12:41 am

PS- Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak is not a remake of Ek Duje Ke Liye; if one wants to go down that route the more accurate thing to say would be that every film involving lovers from warring clans is inspired by Romeo and Juliet (I don’t think anyone could disagree with that; and even though Romeo and Juliet hardly invented that notion itself, it is unquestionably the template for these films, far more than stuff like Laila Majnu, Heer Ranjha, Soni Mahiwal, etc.)

Qalandar 12 January 2009
11:15:23 am

sv: agree that is indiatimes’ own view. My point was that it is NOT correct that only on NG is QSQT regarded as a film of significance within the context of Bollywood. The indiatimes’ piece confirms it — even if one disagrees about why this or that film is on it, the point is that for many people in the wider culture, QSQT has some importance; whereas a bigger hit like Dil will I doubt find many people willing to stand up and say it was important. That’s my only point.

neelu 12 January 2009
11:15:44 am

Q – yes EDKL was a remake of a Tamil original with much of the cast the same, including the leads. Rati and Kamal came together for one other Hindi film that did not work. And SPB won the National award for Tere Mere Beech Mein – that song can still give me goosebumps as I recall the picturization of Rati and Kamal on opposite sides of a closed door in two hotel rooms!

About Sadma – one would think that the lead couple dying would be the ultimate in sadness, but in Sadma the fact that one will forever live with the fact that his entire association with the woman was erased in her mind, is a totally different kind of emptiness. Kamal at that train station as Sri leaves on a train without giving him a backward glance – that is for me the ultimate in despair.

And I should have qualified the perfect gentleman bit to say “on NG” – on the SB is another story!

Qalandar 12 January 2009
11:24:35 am

Yes, there is that Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde bit

perhaps I should say (speaking of films with little to no significance), seeing as this is an Indian film site, “Ghar Mein Ram Galee Mein Shyam“…

sv 12 January 2009
11:26:35 am

Qalandar,I know qsqt has nothing to do with edkl.
neelu,sadma is not exactly a love story isn’t it?Its an experimental film.

Qalandar 12 January 2009
11:33:20 am

Check out this plot summary of Ghar Mein Ram Galee Mein Shyam that someone has written on IMDB:

“Let the man be a saint, crooked or a pervert, the woman of India has always accepted him the way he is, but this one woman who comes from a rich background is full of ego and pride and because of this she doubts her husband’s character and comes across a crooked pervert man who because of his lust spoils innocent girls. She thinks this pervert man is a God and her husband an evil till she realized the truth and once again becomes a true Indian woman. Written by gavin@sunny_deol2009@yahoo.com”

neelu 12 January 2009
11:35:41 am

ROFL! The constant conflict between rogue and gentleman, and women really want!

jayshah 12 January 2009
11:37:14 am

Thanks for the link Qalander – I’ll leave it here…

Arun 12 January 2009
11:40:23 am

Q: EDKL was a remake of Maro Charitra (Telugu). The original had Kamal and Saritha in leading roles.

NyKavi 12 January 2009
12:20:34 pm

Yes, the decade of the 80s had Love Story, EDKL, etc. but they were the one-off romantic hits in a decade of action, action and only action. If Love Story had turned the tide, then Kumar Gaurav wudve been SRK!! He followed up LoveStory with so many romantic movies, but they didnt click.
Similarly EDKL was a big hit, but didnt do anything for furthering the BO prospects of subsequent love stories. Sadma hardly registered at the BO, even though it did become a good video circuit movie. And it cant be counted as the typical popcorn romantic story. EDKL too was very intense compared to a DDLJ.
In fact, after EDKL/LoveStory in 1981, we really dont have genuine romatic movies until QSQT surfaces in 1988. Prem Rog, RTGM, Nikaah etc were more social dramas with a love story entwined. Hero/Betaab were good launching pads for Jackie/Sunny, but did they follow up with bunches of romantic movies? No, they just turned to action again.

QSQT was instrumental in giving fresh faces on screen with soulful music. Udit Narayan became an overnight sensation. Even till today “papa kehte hain” draws cheers when played at graduation ceremonies.

jayshah 12 January 2009
12:32:47 pm

NYKavi – there has not been a Father’s Day gone by when I have not heard Papa Kehte Hain on the radio or tv.

satyam 12 January 2009
12:49:38 pm

I missed quite a bit of the discussion here but I will stick to the EDKL/QSQT opposition created here since it seems entirely fanciful to me.

First off romance was dead and lost more or less in the post Rajesh Khanna period, notwithstanding superhits like Bobby (released the same year as Zanjeer), Love Story (1981), EDKL (also ‘81). One could perhaps throw in Rishi’s Laila Majnu from the 70s as well or even a small film like Julie. But really romance took a beating in this entire period. What’s interesting about Love Story and EDKL is that both released in the very same year and yet so definite was the Bachchan onslaught that nothing much happened to this genre despite the success of these two films. Kumar Gaurav became an overnight star but then fizzled out. Every one of his films after Love Story flopped. Kamal tried a number of genres but couldn’t (unsurprisingly) get it going in Bombay.

So the idea that seven years after EDKL released QSQT was somehow following in its wake is a little bizarre! There couldn’t be two directors more different in their sensibilities than K Balachander and Mansoor Khan!

Now Sadma released in ‘83 and was a very moderate kind of success. Barely scraped the top 20 that year.

There is no connection, NONE WHATSOEVER, between EDKL and QSQT even in a very limited sense. The idea that both films end in tragedies and that both are romances would put only a million other films in that group! Mansoor Khan actually shot two endings for QSQT (one was a happy one) and then went with the tragic ending because he thought it made the film more effective.

The entire tone, narrative, sense of drama et al of EDKL (a film I have a weakness for despite some really crude elements to the narrative) are a world removed from the near-minimalistic universe of QSQT (especially in the context of 80s cinema).

Let’s get into the each film’s central opposition. QSQT relies on an opposition within families who have the same social standing, class/caste orientation and so forth. What creates the crisis of the story is a death. And a death tied to notions of ‘defilement’. A murder then follows. There is an entire history of violence that foreordains the fate of the future lovers.

In EDKL there is no such history. Here we see ethnic tension. The Maharashtrian v the Southern (potent in the post-Shiv Sena period.. the Sena started off its politics persecuting migrant Tamil labor). This also doubles as a Brahmin (Tamilian)/non Brahmin (Maharashtrian) opposition and further overlaid with language quarrels (the hero does not speak much Hindi… interestingly we’ve traveled quite a distance even since then.. today Marathi/Hindi could itself be the subject of such a film). The crisis of this film is therefore based in identity politics. QSQT is a much more masala film in minimalist and for the times very refined veneer.

I am a great fan of QSQT and I find EDKL (despite my strong reservations about some aspects of the film) a great guilty pleasure.

I have gone into some detail here in terms of timelines, the details of each film and so forth because the idea that one film influenced the other is plainly false as I see it. QSQT was certainly considered a kind of new beginning when it released.

There is a desperation with which certain folks try to ‘rewrite’ Aamir’s films. Post-Ghajini the theme that has emerged is ‘remake’. Let’s call as many of Aamir’s films remakes as possible! I wonder if the supporters of Devdas, Don and OSO have a leg to stand on even in this regard (ILG quite rightly notes the transposition of A Kiss before Dying into Baazigar at the very beginning of SRK’s career!)!

On a related note Maro Charitra had the Telugu/Tamil opposition. In each case the boy was the foreigner (Tamilian to Telugu or Marathi).

Qalandar 12 January 2009
01:36:51 pm

Well said NYkavi, I agree; goes back to the point I have been making that it is not a film in itself that determines significance, but the legacy it leaves behind (which is a function of many things that have liitle to do with merit):

http://www.naachgaana.com/2009.....ent-162983

satyam 12 January 2009
01:44:45 pm

Qalandar: That TOI link on QSQT was useful. In general such arguments trying to downplay older films are made not with a little bad faith. One counts on the audience being younger and perhaps not knowing enough about the history to really challenge the claim. Street’s assertion about the same the other day was also hilarious. One proves one’s own lack of moorings in the subject matter. Or else one is acting in total bad faith.

In this regard it’s amusing to sift through many opinions about Bollywood history here. One can immediately separate those who know their stuff from those who’ve seen some old films from every era and think they know everything. Perhaps they know enough to hoodwink a few but there are thankfully some here who know the relevant histories.

NyKavi 12 January 2009
01:45:15 pm

And lets not forget Darr-Cape Fear!

Seriously, I will not defend the accusation of Aamir starring in remakes/homages/influenced movies etc. But so is every other star in bwood! If Bwood had churned out originals, we would have a SDM every year.

NyKavi 12 January 2009
01:48:22 pm

…a SDM at the GG’s/Oscars every year!

And lets not forget that the last bwood movie to be nominated was an “original” story by the name of Lagaan

satyam 12 January 2009
01:50:29 pm

Nykavi: Exactly right. thanks for the reminder. So let’s see SRK has a remake of B or C grade Hollywood movie in Baazigar, an A grade one in Darr, an A grade classic much remade all over India in Devdas, a remake of one of Bachchan’s most iconic films in Don, a remake of Karz (the director happily admitting this) in OSO. Aamir’s remakes anyone?!

What always amuses me about such arguments is the extent to which the people making them fail to take account of the obvious? Shouldn’t one at least be a little thorough?!

and you’re right, no one’s defending Aamir or anyone else. of course I don’t consider ‘remake’ to automatically be the kind of loaded word it often seems to become here (for example De Niro’s Cape Fear is also a remake!). But if one is using this as a negative to attack stars one doesn’t like then one better be accounting for the remakes of stars one supports!

jayshah 12 January 2009
02:03:48 pm

I’m not against remakes – if the aim is to make what was a flawed product better with better script or screenplay or technology then fine. Touching classics though is probably where the buck stops. The latter appears more like “cashing” in on the success of the original.

Obviously one prefers originality…btw you can add Billu Barber to SRK’s list. Bhool Bhulaiyaa comes to mind. Every actor’s probably gone through the routine of remakes.

Unfortunately Aamir picked the blockbuster material one

Qalandar 12 January 2009
02:08:10 pm

Garam Masala, Chup Chup Ke are also remakes (it’s mind-numbing that Garam Masala even needed to be a remake). For Aamir add Akele Hum Akele Tum and Aatank hi Aatank

jayshah 12 January 2009
02:08:44 pm

On QSQT essentially it is no different to Romeo & Juliet also. Plus I think AHAT, JJWS and some others were inspired remakes – the originals of which I had not seen.

The best remake I have enjoyed in hindi cinema is Kaante. Man that film rocked…Manjreker had me in spits in that film.

jayshah 12 January 2009
02:14:33 pm

Haven’t seen Aatank hi Aatank, I believe I am lucky then! Also HHRPK according to WIKI was inspired by Houseboat (never heard of it!) DHKMH WIKI informs me is a frame by frame remake of It Happened One Night (never seen or heard of it). For the dumb moviegoer like me, I only know the remakes/inspirations of Don, Devdas, Darr, Billu Barber and Ghajini. Aamir’s choices are rather un-obvious I must say…and SRK’s rather obvious! Hmmmm….have the tables turned?

jayshah 12 January 2009
02:21:47 pm

And Don was interesting to say the least. Not only did Farhan want to pay homage to the film, he felt the need to take the songs too – couldn’t they have at least come up with a new soundtrack? Same with RGV Ki Aag to take Mehbooba song. Talk about rip-offs!

Qalandar 12 January 2009
02:25:04 pm

Jay: Dil Hai Ki Maanta Nahin was a remake of a remake! Chori Chori (Raj kapoor/Nargis) –> It Happened One Night (both the latter and Chori Chori are very famous films indeed). Aatank Hi Aatank is a ghastly remake of the Godfather. Truly ghastly — but it’s worth watching for the weirdness of seeing aamir and rajni share screen space

Spare a thought for Tamil superstar Vijay: virtually every one of his successful films ia a remake. And (it gets better) a disproportionate number are remakes of Mahesh Babu’s Telugu successes LOL!

And then there’s Don — remade as Billa with Rajnikanth; and when Farhan Akhtar remade the Hindi Don; Ajith decided to follow suit with a remake of Billa. Hamaare paas even the concept of remaking original nahin hai

Qalandar 12 January 2009
02:27:58 pm

But as far as I can tell there is only one chap who has remade his own film in the very same language: Yash Chopra, who decided to remake one of the greatest Hindi films ever made IMO (Trishul) barely a decade later with Anil Kapoor’s Vijay (“…aur aap mere baap ke baap hain” just didn’t have the same ring as “…aap mere najaayaz baap hain” ), better known back in the day for Sonam’s string bikini run on the beach than any intrinsic merit. Yaani ke RGV is also not original in re-enacting a great film as a farce.

ILG 12 January 2009
02:34:43 pm

Aatank hi Aatank was not bad at all.

ILG 12 January 2009
02:35:26 pm

Q,
You have a special facility to remember things like Sonam’s string bikini run!

Qalandar 12 January 2009
02:45:13 pm

It made quite an impression on a 9 year-old in Dubai…

satyam 12 January 2009
04:42:38 pm

Agreed with all the points made here on remakes. And yes Aatank hi Aatank is a decent film.

Incidentally no one beats Hollywood when it comes to remaking films their own films! And a lot from elsewhere also!

Qalandar, Vijay was always a very appalling remake precisely for that reason! Yash Chopra wasn’t doing well at the time and got rather desperate.

Dil Hai Ke Maanta Nahin again holds its own against Chori chori. Of course the latter is a much loved classic with that legendary screen pair and that extraordinary soundtrack and so forth. But it’s not a Bachchan deal where the script or the lead star is so unique. I am actually not that great a fan of It Happened One Night either. I love Capra at many points. This isn’t one of them.

satyam 12 January 2009
04:50:59 pm

There are some remakes where as Jay suggests newer versions try to ‘better’ older ones. There are some where there’s nothing wrong with the original and the new version is just a re-interpretation of the original subject (of course to find the ‘flaw’ in an older version often amounts to simply an act of re-interpretation.. it’s hard to be sure). There are some made for entirely commercial decisions.

I am in any case never bothered just by the idea of a remake. It’s all a question of whether a film works or not. If it doesn’t remake or not seems immaterial and vice versa. Of course sometimes very canonical films are attempted to cash in as Jay says. These attempts are misplaced. One is for example unlikely to be able to reinterpret Sholay in any valuable sense. The task is just too great and would require a series of improbabilities in terms of talent assembled etc.

But if people think Aamir has made 64 crores in an initial or more than 100 crores in terms of gross simply because he remade first off these people should inform Boney Kapoor immediately whose remakes combined don’t net 64 crores! Secondly these people should advise their favorite stars to remake anything they like and ‘cash in’! The last time I checked Don as a remake couldn’t match even as a relatively successful film any of SRK other significant successes in this decade! So SRK actually under-performed with the remake of a very iconic, classic Bachchan film where Aamir with a Tamil remake has made way more than the original ever did. In fact he’s done a Sivaji here with the remake. LOL!

satyam 12 January 2009
04:52:27 pm

Qalandar, On DHKMT though Bhatt claimed he’d gone back to the source. Much as Dutta claimed the same thing for UJ. In fact Dutta felt that Muzaffar Ali had toned down the novel in many ways.

neelu 12 January 2009
05:47:11 pm

I have one word for this discussion – a word that bears looking into! PLAGIARISM!

Spoofs, homages, adaptations and official remakes DO NOT qualify as thefts. The others do – and yes all have had their share – but none have denigratde their source material. I refer people to Aamir’s vlog on Memento. I thought the resident lawyer would appreciate that these terms have legal meanings too.

NyKavi 12 January 2009
07:06:53 pm

In its day, Vijay was one heckuva raunchy ramp.
Sonam in the bikini and the melting of the bwood Ice Maiden. Yes, Meenakshi Sheshadri herself liplocking passionately with Anil Bhaloo Kapoor! For a moment out there YRF seemed to have equalled Raj Kapoor in extracting whatever he wanted out of his heroines. Unfortunately the film folded very quickly, since Anil-Anupam cudnt even hold a candle to Amitabh-Sanjiv in the original.

RAJ 13 January 2009
07:37:13 am

After watching New DON i watched the old DON…but i coukdnt tilerate it beyond 30 mins…

RAJ 13 January 2009
07:40:38 am

Remake or no remake…

Darr,Bazzigarr,JJWS,DHKMN entertained …Thats the bottomline…

NyKavi 13 January 2009
07:45:17 am

Raj, unfortunately the “new” Don was not available to the “orignal” Don viewers in 1977. Also, that time if SRK had starred, the movie wudve been known as “Chaddi Don”!

There is no doubt that the original Don is not at all technically comparable to the remake. Don in 1977 was cutting edge for its day back then. Don in 2006 was cutting edge as well for its day. The diff was in the performances only, and also the butchered Khaike Paan. Pls dont ever come back and tell me that you preferred the new version to the one immortalised by Kishore Kumar!

NyKavi 13 January 2009
07:48:29 am

On second thoughts you prolly missed Khaike Paan, since you cudnt get past the first 30 mins..

Ravi 13 January 2009
08:07:18 am

After a statement like that Nykavi bhai, no point in wasting time to discuss anything at all.

Qalandar 13 January 2009
10:10:57 am

Re: “Spoofs, homages, adaptations and official remakes DO NOT qualify as thefts. The others do – and yes all have had their share – but none have denigratde their source material. I refer people to Aamir’s vlog on Memento. I thought the resident lawyer would appreciate that these terms have legal meanings too.”

Firstly, denigration of original source material is not a legally cognizable offense. In fact it is constitutionally protected speech, under both american and indian law as far as I know. Even a re-maker or a plagiarist has the right to say that the original sucks. [One can hold him legally accountable for the plagiarism, NOT for denigration of original source material -- absent some agreement between the relevant parties pursuant to which one agreed NOT to denigrate the source]. i.e. one can say that the person who is denigrating the original source (assuming that is what was happening; here if I recall correctly Aamir was suggesting that HE didn’t understand the film, i.e. my sense was he was suggesting “mere sar ke oopar se guzar gayee”, NOT “hum original ko improve kar rahe hain”; but that’s a separate discussion) is dumb, ungracious, an asshole, even — but it makes no legal difference. Stated differently, you are not allowed to remake a film just because you happen to adore it. Whether one adores it, wishes to improve it, update it, whatever, makes no difference.

Back to the main point at hand, different issues are being lumped together. The LEGAL issue is being lumped with an ETHICAL and/or an AESTHETIC one. Let me illustrate: Saathiya is an official remake, and Dayavan an unofficial one. The difference here is that the original has not been compensated/acknowledged in one instance, and has been in the other. In both cases, the charge that the remaker is unoriginal, a copycat, and derivative, stands (in one case, he stands on LEGALLY firm ground in that no one can sue him, but that has no bearing on whether or not his work is derivative and un-original. It surely is in either case, and hence typically — if the remake is “straight” — one is unlikely to get as much credit for this sort of film than an “original” one).

A separate instance is where the rip-off is acknowledged. This complicates things a bit: Dayavan was not an official remake, BUT Firoz Khan never hid the fact that it was a remake; this was well-publicized at the time (and back in those days intellectual property protections were very weak, so no-one bothered to sue each other in the film industry based on this sort of thing). Whatever the LEGAL merits, this seems to me a different sort of thing from the likes of Anu Malik, Nadeem-Shravan, who not only ripped off but blatantly lied and/or misrepresented/allowed the public to believe that their work was original. The moral distinction is obvious (aesthetically, of course, there is no distinction, as both Firoz Khan and the music composers in question showed themselves to be unoriginal and unimaginative).

A third category is the chap who remakes his own stuff in various languages. Assuming he/she has the rights to do so, there is no LEGAL issue here; nor can one say he is being derivative, as it is his/her own work (the classic example is Priyadarshan; although it is a separate question whether the director has the right to remake stuff WRITTEN by others in the original languages; do they get credit in the remade versions? I do not know). Assuming no-one (e.g. the scriptwriter of the original) is being cheated, left out, perhaps the most one can say of this sort of re-maker is that he/she is lazy and complacent.

Obviously, to the extent that the remake is not “straight”, one gets more marks for originality than one otherwise would. Thus “Don (2006)” is more “original” than “Saathiya”; the latter is an official remake, but that just means Mani can’t sue Shaad Ali — it has no bearing on what Shaad has brought to the table that is “new.” I am led to believe that “The Departed” is not just a scene-by-scene remake of the Hong Kong films on which it is based, but someone here who has seen both will have to comment (satyam I believe has, but I believe there are others on NG who have seen the original films as well).

Aside: the practical reality is that “adaptations” of books, other texts, etc. are treated differently. One can debate why this is so, and whether or not it ought to be so, but no-one would ever accuse the “adapter” of Umraojaan, Hamlet, or Pride & Pejudice, of “plagiarism.” [This isn't a legal question, I am merely saying that in society the category is a different one for this sort of thing. If I accused Kenneth Branagh of being a "plagiarist" people would think I was crazy]. Surely the fact that the medium is different (book vs. cinema; theater vs. film) has a lot to do with the difference in perception]. But legally even this wouldn’t make a difference: IF the copyright is valid, then one cannot “adapt” absent permission…

Finally, there is the question of the bad film, which isn’t really an ethical question as I see it but simply a function of how much enjoyment I derive from a film. Thus Dharmatma and Aatank Hi Aatank and Sarkar are all re-makes of the Godfather. But unquestionably there is more that is original in Sarkar than in the other two. I without any hesitation will say that I vastly prefer Dharmatma to Aatank Hi Aatank.

neelu 13 January 2009
10:39:36 am

Q – this reminds me of my favorite Harry Belafonte song! “It was clear as mud but it covered the ground, and the confusion in the brain go round!” No, I do get it, but I think by saying all of the above you have spread the muck around from which it is hard to sift out the real issues. I deal with issues of plagiarism on a daily basis so let me state my piece:

1. “Firstly, denigration of original source material is not a legally cognizable offense.” No, of course it is not, but when doen to defend plagiarism it becomes somewhat morally reprehensible in my book. As in – no I did not copy it, and what is the big deal it was bad/incomprehensible anyway.

2. Acknowledging the source and not relying on it too heavily comes under the term homage in my book – thus the protagonist in MSFU watching Chinatown on TV is in that realm – though a little too close to the source.

3. Remaking something you have rights to, or have acquired rights for is perfectly fine, though may be considered lazy unless the material is thoroughly reworked. Then the question is – what originality do you bring to the table? One could argue that Murugadoss had “rights” (though questionable as the original itself is plagiarized) but what was the originality he brought to the table in the Hindi Ghajini?

4. Adapting classic literature is outside the copyright realm. How long do copyrights last for anyway? Thus all of Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens etc. are available to all to adapt. Bhansali adapted Dostoyevsky’s White Nights in Saawariya (though with a lot less success than the Italian adaptation with Marcello).

5. For modern literature/writing rights have to be acquired – for instance Chetan Bhagat’s One Night at a Call Center or even the 3 Idiots source. In fact we hear that 3 Idiots is quite a departure from the book, but would they dare to use any material from there without rights? One would say not – because the author is Indian and they would be tied up in a legal battle.

In fact I tend to prefer the intellectual laziness of remaking your own material (Mahesh Bhatt has been making hay on the Parveen Babi story for a few films) because hwo is it different from the intellectual laziness of ripping off? And it is at the very least honest. And if one is not able to generate material then I vastly prefer adapting classics over remaking your own material. As the world gets more and more globalized we become more aware of ripoffs and indeed the world becomes aware of our ripoffs and that is a bad stats for Indian cinema to be in. Yes – that goes for music too.

Qalandar 13 January 2009
10:49:47 am

The Belafonte comment notwithstanding*, I don’t think there’s any disagreement between our views in these last two comments (leaving aside perhaps (1). perhaps. Because my interpretation of what aamir had said appears to be different from yours. But I agree with the general point here as well).

*[I don't know who Belafonte is, since I know virtually no music that isn't desi music. A good friend always plays a drinking game with me, where he'll ask me if I have heard of ridiculously famous song/artiste/group: 90% of the time I have not.]

neelu 13 January 2009
11:06:01 am

Q – you are missing out! Belafonte was a classic – and his music a mix of Calypso and folk. The most famous would be the Banana Boat song – Day O! Daylight come and me wanna go home! Belafonte was who the ghost in Beetlejuice preferred.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqVV4GSYrNM&feature=related

And Shake Shake Senora!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

ILG 13 January 2009
11:43:51 am

Belafonte is fine as far as music goes. As a social and political activist is prone to hyperbole and gaffes.
If denigration of source material was a cognizable offense, SRK would be behind the bars for life. For what he did to Don and Karz. Obviosuly a copy, a remake or a homage suffers on the originality count. Thats a given. But, practically every actor/film industry does it on a regular basis. So, to criticise a film or put a film down on that basis is rather churlish and disingenuous. And, sometimes ideologically dishonest.I dont think any star or their fans are that ‘pure’.

neelu 13 January 2009
11:49:39 am

ILG – I happen to think that an honest and legal remake of Don or a homage to Karz in OSO is not a legal offense.

“So, to criticise a film or put a film down on that basis is rather churlish and disingenuous. And, sometimes ideologically dishonest.I dont think any star or their fans are that ‘pure’.”

Oh yes? Like you are doing for Don or OSO? “Look in the Mirror boy!” Sorry no offense to you, I am in music “quoting” mode – and that is from my favorite Rock opera Tommy!

neelu 13 January 2009
11:50:57 am

I suggest you watch Memento to see the crime that was committed!

ILG 13 January 2009
11:58:47 am

Neelu,
I am talking about legalality remake. I am refering to denigration of source comment.
I have never criticsed SRK for making remakes. Unless, bringing it up as a counter argument. He or any body else can make as many remakes as they want. Ultimately, their effort is going to be judged against the original and SRK loses that battle CRITICALLY with both Don and OSO. Personally, I enjoyed the new Don as a film by itself. Obviously, prefer the original Don for a number of reasons. But, on its own the new Don was pretty enjoyable. Tho, it is the first film where the deterioration in SRK’s looks became apparent to me. But, regardless I think both Farhan and him ,did a fine job here and look forward to Don 2.

ILG 13 January 2009
12:01:01 pm

Neelu, have watched the ‘original’ and while there are too many similarities, they are still vastly different films.
Ghajini is the Indian , masala version. And, I make no apologies for wnjoying it thoroughly. And, neither should you for not liking it. Just dont use remake/copy as an argument.

saket 13 January 2009
12:06:54 pm

Comparing Ghajini to Memento and finding faults with the former is one thing. To not even entertain queries about other such flagrant acts of copying/shameless stealing (e.g. Don or the various other remakes I’ve listed above) is another. It not only reeks of ideological dishonesty but a clear case of malice, of suppressed frustration taking center stage in one’s arguments. Not that I have a need to spell it out in this fashion. It’s so transparent, it’s not even funny anymore.

ILG 13 January 2009
12:10:50 pm

It is quite fitting and in keeping with NG’s glorious traditions that 95% of the 316 comments have nothing to do with the original topic! BTW, this doesnt happen ‘ONLY ON NG’.

saket 13 January 2009
12:12:32 pm

Put this way, I have no objection if someone calls Ghajini a bad/sub-par film. I can see where one is coming from if that person thinks it’s a below par effort from a normally quality-conscious Aamir Khan. But to see a bunch of SRK fans jump on him for remaking a Tamil ‘masala’ film, in the garb of being Memento fans strikes me not only as odd, but fishy. It’s not the criticism that I’m opposed to, it’s the intent that raises heckles and eyebrows. Furthermore, being SRK fans and all, criticism of Aamir’s films strikes one as being, quite frankly, rich.

Qalandar 13 January 2009
12:13:08 pm

Let’s all chill…and get together and watch “Zalzalaa”, and McKenna’s Gold as well…

ILG 13 January 2009
12:27:41 pm

Speaking of Zalzala, was wondering the other dya what happened of Karan Kapoor. Found out, he is living in London and working as a photographer. His website: karankapoor.com

satyam 13 January 2009
12:32:45 pm

Ah we’re into issues of legality here! It’s first about remakes.. when this idea gets thoroughly deconstructed it’s about ‘legal’ remakes.. so presumably Baazigar and Darr fall in the category of ‘illegal’ remakes? Hence SRK deserves no credit for the films? Where are we going with this logic? LOL! But again this is just a way to deconstruct Aamir and simply try to hunt desperately for any and every argument that can be used against Ghajini! Once again I wish people would just use their brains a little bit before launching into things that quite obviously deconstruct their very own stars as well!

I have a new one — SRK bungalow is over disputed property in Bombay.. the paperwork was this is still a mess.. he got it through connections but the land itself remains ‘contested’.. no one’s likely to bother him any time soon over this but a govt can apply pressure whenever it wants to.. so let’s give SRK less credit than Aamir? Since there is no such legal issue with the latter’s property! LOL!

saket 13 January 2009
12:34:02 pm

Karan Kapoor was a part of Loha, not Zalzala

satyam 13 January 2009
12:34:42 pm

Qalandar: Thanks for illuminating the legal side on all of this. Thorough as always!

Qalandar 13 January 2009
12:35:51 pm

Yes, Zalzala featured “Chimpoo” Kapoor.

ILG 13 January 2009
12:37:13 pm

My bad.
Zalzala, Loha…. same difference!

Qalandar 13 January 2009
12:48:47 pm

Thanks satyam. Though my aim was to illustrate that the “opprobrium” associated with remakes ought not to be a function of the “legality” — since whether or not it is “legal” has no bearing on the reasons why we tend to place a value on “originality” in the first place.

The Manorama Six Feet Under case is a fascinating example, and potentially quite troubling. Here we had a film that was a “serious” film (i.e. no question that there was no spoofish element a la Om Shanti Om), and nor was it publicized as a remake (a la Don (2006) or the Hindi Ghajini). This film clearly owes a great deal to Chinatown, and early on in the film the protagonist is shown watching that very film. This by itself does not in my view innoculate the filmmaker against the charge of plagiarism, because everything else in the film is pretty “straight”; I don’t think the filmmakers can “get out of it” by openly acknowledging their plagiarism (also, no reason we should be more forgiving of the unoriginality of those who cleverly hint at their indebtedness versus the Nadeem Shravans of the world); Manorama Six Feet Under doesn’t “do” anything with this acknowledgment, once the acknowledgment is “out of the way” it proceeds as per usual…

Qalandar 13 January 2009
12:50:50 pm

That being said, I quite enjoyed Manorama — superb feel of a small town where nothing seems to happen…

ILG 13 January 2009
12:57:20 pm

I think there are legal considerations in not acknowledging the source. If you acknowledge the inspiration, you are inviting trouble. Like our Commander-in-chief, at the press conference acknowledging his role in water-boarding and other war crimes.

rks 13 January 2009
12:59:14 pm

Q – By any chance have you seen Summer 2007?

Qalandar 13 January 2009
01:01:05 pm

satyam: on Chori Chori I agree that Dil Hai Ke Maanta Nahin the film stands up quite well. But for me this sort of film turns on the stars, and the RK-Nargis pair is really something. Hence prefer it to It Happened One Night (Clark Gable anyway I don’t care for)…

Qalandar 13 January 2009
01:01:56 pm

No RKS, but wanted to — this is the sikandar kher film right?

I don’t know about the film Chandni Chowk, but this thread is certainly headed towards alltime b-buster status…thanks Gabber!

Qalandar 13 January 2009
01:04:23 pm

ILG: I have my doubts about Don 2 ever being made. One has been hearing about this since 2006 itself, and nearly two and a half years later, shooting still hasn’t started. Farhan confirmed quite a while ago that it is on, but has shown no sign of actually making it. We know it is certainly not part of SRK’s 2009 releases. If I were a betting man I would say it won’t ever get made….

ILG 13 January 2009
01:09:03 pm

Only summer worth watching is Summer of ‘42.

rks 13 January 2009
01:10:45 pm

Q – Yes. I searched archives and found that Satyam called it poor. But I think thematically it is decent and probably better than many films churned out.

neelu 13 January 2009
03:11:02 pm

“I don’t think there’s any disagreement between our views in these last two comments (leaving aside perhaps (1). perhaps. ”

Thanks for some sanity Q! Yet still the madness prevails, and there is refusal to acknowledge theft by running down the quality of other official remakes. Arre baba – chori nahin kee, rest is subjective judgment on whether you liked Don or OSO or Saathiya or not. To bring in the house ownership, kitchen sink and Timbuktoo, will force one to go to extramarital affairs, unacknowledged children etc etc. But what do I care about any of this when evaluating a film? Yes all stars did ripoff films – and now we should feel proud that they did! I am talking of this particular ripoff.

About MSFU – I too liked it and already mentioned that accepting the homage aspect is a bit uneasy. However it is acknowledged, and the source is NOT denigrated.

For those who think Ghajni was NOT ripping off Memento – maybe it would be better to not merely froth at the mouth but to actually detail why it was not? And yes, to me the fact that it was a shameless ripoff of the most superficial story line of Memento, and also a frame for frame remake of the Tamil version (which I had seen) – makes this one a film I did not like.

S T R E E T 14 January 2009
02:08:37 am

ok here’s the 80’s romantic hits in chronological order (for the fanatic sake I use IBOS nos.)

81 – Love Story

83 – Hero…79cr and Betaab…61cr

84 – Tohfa…59cr and Soni Mahiwal…35cr

85 – Ram Teri …90cr, Pyaar Jhukta Nahin…50cr, Teri Meherbaniyan… 40cr, Saagar and Sanjog …30cr each

86 – 5 of the top 8 films include Nagina, Swarg Se Sundar, Ghar Sansar, Jaanbaaz and Dilwaala.

Apr1 88 – Pyaar Ka Mandir …39cr

Apr29 88 – QSQT …38cr

Nov 88 – Tezaab …64cr

89 – Maine Pyar kiya…103cr, Chandni…38cr, Chaalbaaz…27cr

Starting with Love STory in 81.. the number and magnitide of hits in romantic genre increase by every single year.. thanks mostly to the new stars’ debuts/early films.(Jackie, Sunny, Anil, Aamir, Salman and Govinda all start with romantic films) And though 87 is a lowly year (even for action) the trend continues 88 through to 90’sincreasing at the same rate as it was 83 to 86. So why does QSQT get all credit.. when it is amongst the smallest, if not THE smallest and most insignificant of a cluster of romantic hits that all followed each other in quick succession, within months of each other. Just as there’s those that argue that producers started making romantic films after the success of QSQT, a more likely scenario to counter that would be that due to the success of all those romantic hits in 85 and 86… the films that released 88-90 were mostly in that genre. Remember it’s the 80’s when film-making took much longer than it does today (or maybe not.. most films even today take 1-2 years to release from date of announcement). So, films that came in 87 were mostly likely planned and started in 84 to early 85. While the ones started in response to the hits of 85 and 86 all saw release in 88 and 89.

To say that there was action and action dominating the industry throughout the 80’s… prior to QSQTs “success” and that because of that movie’s adjusted 38 cr gross Bollywood producers all pured their money into making romantic films….is simply one false ass statement that will find its takers only amongst certain section of NGites…

.. the same NGites that also claim that OSO is a rip-off.The funny thing is that another romantic , starring Madhuri of all, Pyaar ka Mandir released only 4 weeks before QSQT and made as much, was as big a hit.. and one cane totally makde a case for her being a bigger star than both Aamir and Juhi put together post-88. So much for QSQT and teh so-called Aamir phenomena.. hate to sound like a broket record .. ONLY ON NG!!!

jayshah 14 January 2009
02:58:34 am

81 – Love Story

WIKI – “Love Story is a 1981 film directed by Rajendra Kumar. The film also stars Rajendra Kumar alongside his son Kumar Gaurav and Vijeta Pandit both making their film debuts. Vidya Sinha, Amjad Khan, Danny Denzongpa and Aruna Irani also appear in supporting roles. The music was composed by R. D. Burman with lyrics by Anand Bakshi. The film became a “blockbuster” at the box office.[1] This movie made Kumar Gaurav a ‘Star’ overnight.[2] Amit Kumar won the Filmfare Best Male Playback Award over another nominee, his father Kishore Kumar.”

83 – Hero…79cr and Betaab…61cr

WIKI – “Jackie Shroff played the lead role, also called “Jackie”, and achieved stardom overnight.

The lead was initially to be played by Sanjay Dutt, but Ghai changed his mind after witnessing Dutt in his drug phase during the shooting of Vidhaata, and gave the role to Shroff.”

WIKI – “Betaab (English: Impatient) is an Indian Bollywood movie released on August 5, 1983, directed by Rahul Rawail and produced by Bikram Sing Dahal. The film satars Sunny Deol and Amrita Singh in their debut roles. The film went on to be one of the biggest hits of the year.”

I can carry on for each film. Now read the “narrative” on QSQT. I will use WIKI because I consider it more knowledgable than Street will ever be.

Aarohi 14 January 2009
03:29:18 am

Teri Meharbaniyan is a unique love story indeed.

akshay shah 14 January 2009
04:32:04 am

“So why does QSQT get all credit..”…Why? Simple..do you see poeple sitting here and talking about SOHINI MAHAWAL? or TOHFAA? or DILWALA? NO….sometimes a movie of the past becomes all that more significant in some ways because of the past and future associated with it. QSQT remained etched in the viewers minds for years to come. The only other comparable love story in terms of impact and longetivity is MPK or DDLJ!

IMO QSQT may not be the bigger hit, but it’s still discussed and talked about in countless places.

09 is going to be a real clincher in the sense MY NAME IS KHAN and 3 IDIOTS both release and will seal the deal to an extent as far as the Aamir/SRK argument is concerned. No doubt Johar is going for a critically acclaimed blockbuster ala CDI with SRK in a authorbacked role (i predicted a while back that SRK may start adopting another “persona” of sorts after CDI with his surname “Khan” being the key factor…looking forward to this immensley i hope Johar doens’t turn this into a preachy hamfest!

3 IDIOTS on the other hand has Aamir Khan coming off GHAJINI with a certain Hirani…..nuff said!

A.Shah

akshay shah 14 January 2009
04:34:31 am

though this discussion sounds similar to the –Aamir in RANGEELA in Munna is only famous on NG and regarded highly on NG and the music of GURU sucks etc..

A.Shah

BOND 007 14 January 2009
06:38:58 am

Let’s not give any credit to anyone EXCEPT SRK. Go SRK fans… You rock !!!!

julie 14 January 2009
06:47:55 am

Street, Madhuri was a phenomenon in her own respect for a good decade and I have always pointed that out. It is tough for most actors of that age to stand up to the stature of this lady.

julie 14 January 2009
06:48:58 am

and Street thanks for highlighting that point which somehow keeps getting omitted in most discussions.

S T R E E T 14 January 2009
08:06:21 pm

jayshah.. you missed teh whole point there. Either that .. or you just making a total fool outta yourself attepting humour.

Akshay.. You think that Munna in Rangeela and QSQT the movie were teh talk of the town when they released.. but all indicators show that it wasn’t and nobody ever cared about. ATleast compared to the other Bigger romantic hits of teh time, it wasn’t even mentioned anywhere. And even today nobody, besides that TOI piece that happens to have a number of other movies perhaps critically acclaimed but hardly a s”stirrer” of any kind in its era. Put it this way.. Kabhi Haan Kabhi Naa often features amongst the critically acclaimed films of the 90s or amongst the best SrK performances.. but during its release, it was hardly a film that many throughout India EVEN KNEW OF.. 93-95 was all about Darr, Baazigar, KA and DDLJ…. and to an extent RBGG. to say, that KHKN started some kind of trend or was it a film that changed teh face of Bollywood, is reidiculous. Yes the film definitely halped SrK make a mark for himself as an actor..It was the film that won him his first Critics award at FIlmfare.. but that’s about it.

And yes Akshay, outside NG a film like MPK is discussed a lot more than QSQT is. I’d be surprised if as many people that watched MPK even know if a film by the name QSQT even exists.

akshay shah 14 January 2009
08:14:06 pm

neelu 14 January 2009
08:21:47 pm

It now seems that the film CCTC is hardly like the promos we saw advertised; parallels the title of this thread and its content. Based on the extreme popularity of this thread despite false advertising, I am now predicting that CCTC will be an all time Blockbuster!

akshay shah 14 January 2009
08:26:20 pm

Neelu: Gabber will shoot me for saying this, but after a huge initial I don’t think CCTC will have many legs. The initial is going to be a MONSTER(it’s getting a release akin to any Hollywood film) and the collections from International audiences too will boost the movie hugely…but in India it maynot be the blockbuster people are expecting(just a hunch).
Gut feeling…and i’m happy to eat humble pie:)

A.Shah

S T R E E T 14 January 2009
08:31:33 pm

yes julie.. Madhuri was huge in those years.. She wasn’t referred to as teh female Bachchan for no reason. In fact, a lot of people in the trade claim that Amitabh’s successor at the BO was Madhuri, and not SrK. SrK came later.
And it’s the emergence of these female superstars (the other being Sridevi ofcourse) that should get most of the credit for the gradual shift away from action in those late 80’s.

And honestly, for all the trashings that 80’s get for being teh lowpoint in Hindi commercial cinema, it’s one of the best eras for women, as some of the best woman-oriented films were made.. some of the best female roles were written during the time.. and just as we had those female superstars in the commercial cinema, the era also saw the emergence of some of the best talents in parallel cinema – Shabana Azmi, Dimple Kabadia, Smita Patel and the then there were the 70’s actresses who didn’t really do much in that decade but got author-backed roles in the 80’s.. e.g. Rekha with Khoon Bhari Maang, Khoobsurat etc.

Gabber 14 January 2009
08:45:52 pm

Akshay, I am getting similar vibes. What I am now interested to see is given the likely scenario of Tashan getting average to below average WOM, can it still be a hit (netting 75 Cr)?

Gabber 14 January 2009
08:46:11 pm

Akshay, I am getting similar vibes. What I am now interested to see is given the likely scenario of CC2C getting average to below average WOM, can it still be a hit (netting 75 Cr)?

S T R E E T 14 January 2009
09:29:18 pm

just curious.. what’s been Akshay’s best trended film in the past few years? and how does it compare to other 3 top stars’ films?

sandy 14 January 2009
09:44:33 pm

Akshay: I think it was Q’s review that really dampened hopes, because we know he means well and yet hated it.

Did you see what Nikhil Advani said about the film in one of the interviews. He said, ‘China has Kung fu and we have songs, so why not bring both together and see what we can do with it’ This is the premise for a film!

Gabber 14 January 2009
10:18:52 pm

agree with Sandy.

Another citation about CCTC – Akshay said that his son loved the movie and said that it was like cartoon film. Now one can deduce many things (both +ve and -ve) over here.

ideaunique 14 January 2009
10:34:48 pm

after watching DRONA, SRK had said “my son liked the movie….” and…..:-)

RAJ 14 January 2009
10:53:51 pm

Street,

Welcome trended reasonably well…

sandy 14 January 2009
11:33:30 pm

“after watching DRONA, SRK had said “my son liked the movie….” and…..:-)”

Idea: SRK was just trying to be sweet. What could he have said? In fact, I think he nicely sidestepped from making any direct comments about the film by just saying his son enjoyed it. End of the matter. At least he wasn’t hypocritical to say ‘it was a great film!’ like a lot of people do at such premiere shows.

Aamir is of course the other extreme. He might have just blurted out the truth but then again, he was pretty diplomatic after seeing Sarkar Raj. If I’m not wrong, he said, ‘it was a good effort from Ramu’

ideaunique 15 January 2009
12:07:28 am

sandy, i was joking as this sons saying “i liked the film” may not be auguring well for films….drona was released with lot of hypes and the rest….is a trigonometry

jayshah 15 January 2009
12:56:33 am

Here is Taran in the box office report this week

“Post QAYAMAT SE QAYAMAT TAK, I distinctly recall, the trade magazines were full of announcements of love stories. A similar bhed-chaal was noticed when MAINE PYAR KIYA re-wrote history. Almost every producer then was either keen on starting a love story or had already started one. Those were the days when 30/40 films were announced in any given week, with actors having 50/60/70 films on hand at any given time, doling out dates to producers as if they were distributing prasad.”

Thats just today…

NyKavi 15 January 2009
06:42:43 am

Street, while I appreciate the sincere hardwork you have done to come up with that list, I think you need to go check the meaning of what a “Romance/Love Story” genre really means in the bwood dictum. The story has to revolve around 2 individuals meeting, falling in love and the manifestation of their love after stress/tension, and ultimately a happy ending resulting in their union or a sad ending with their deaths. Simply having a movie with no action doesnt classify it to be a “Love Story”. Also, if Hero/Janbaaz were love stories, then pretty much everything Amitabh did after 1978 becomes a love story (all the masala potboilers included!).
The only movies fitting that meaning are Love Story, Betaab, EDKL, Soni Mahiwal,Saagar and QSQT.
The rest simply are either social dramas (RTGM,SSS,PKM);actioneers (Jaanbaaz,Hero) or as in some cases about the love betn a man and his dog (Teri Meharbaniyan) and about snakes (Nagina, which was a followup to Naagin, which even inspires a TV serial currently) !!

When people say QSQT turned the tide, its because this movie was followed by the likes of MPK,Dil,DHKMN,DDLJ,and the countless other non-action romantic flicks of the 90s.

neelu 15 January 2009
11:25:26 am

How can something that followed blockbuster successes like Love Story and EDKL, while it itself was moderately successful, be called a trendsetter? Today we are free to revise history as we like, but that hardly makes sense.

jayshah 15 January 2009
01:56:18 pm

neelu a film like DCH is hardly a big grosser but is definitely a trend setter. Ditto Lagaan. Ditto MBBS. A film doesn’t need to be a blockbuster to qualify as significant! And a blockbuster does not mean the film IS significant eg. Raja Hindustani.

On QSQT again, street says no-one talks about outside NG. 3 different sources all suggesting the significance of QSQT have been displayed – WIKI, timesofindia and that taran quote mentioning it JUST TODAY from trade perspective.

Now pull out something on “your” choices and we can have a discussion. Otherwise all your doing is debating with your knowledge whereas some have provided “additional” source information to evidence the claim QSQT is significant and a certain trend setter.

Ball is in your court!

satyam 15 January 2009
01:58:51 pm

In many ways QSQT is really the first credible film of a somewhat post-Bachchan era. It was a big success at the time. In terms of pure gross of course but in terms of profitability it was easily the year’s biggest hit. Aamir similarly was the first ‘new hero’. Everyone else followed. Other star sons emerged during the Bachchan reign but not one was ever connected with anything new in terms of trends and so forth.

I must say that I find it appalling and downright comical that some here would actually question QSQT. Either one wasn’t around at the time, or one didn’t realize what was going on, or else one is speaking in bad faith for partisan reasons!

I suppose we’re soon going to run down the list and question other Aamir successes as well!

One can have debates about many matters but certain propositions start with such absurd premises that one feels like a mutt for even bothering to correct things!

This is the George Bush view of things! One says anything and everything and pretends this is reality.

jayshah 15 January 2009
02:02:35 pm

BTW many trend setters are not necessarily big. The beneficiaries can in many cases be what proceeds them. DDLJ is the opposite. Everything that has tried to emulate its success has pretty much failed. With DCH as a multiplex movie it arrived early doors and didnt reap the benefits commercially. A film like DCH in today’s market would just be a huge hit. Point is there is no “fixed” formula to what is significant or what is influential. It doesn’t have to be a blockbuster, it might not even have to be a hit. What proceeds it usually gives the story away though.

jayshah 15 January 2009
02:03:56 pm

“DDLJ is the opposite. Everything that has tried to emulate its success has pretty much failed”

Failed in the sense to emulate DDLJ

satyam 15 January 2009
02:05:49 pm

Jay: That’s true but with DCH we also have a film a bit ahead of the multiplex curve. Had it released just a few years later it would have been a very big grosser. But yes there are hits that don’t matter beyond their instant time periods and flops or average grossers that do over time. Whether hit or not some films just transcend the very notion of gross. Of course QSQT is not such a film. It was a very big success.

jayshah 15 January 2009
02:15:37 pm

http://www.filmigeek.net/2006/....._qaya.html

A review. Try and read several reviews of QSQT online and gauge what the film meant in terms of industry dynamics, plenty highlight it. Here the reviewer says “introduced Indian filmgoers to two young actors who went on to become two of the biggest stars of their era – Aamir Khan and Juhi Chawla. It did more than that; it ended an era of violent, action-oriented films and launched the modern romance revival that propelled the careers of a number of actors with dashing hero appeal, like Aamir, Shah Rukh Khan, and Salman Khan – along with their heroines, like Juhi, Madhuri Dixit, and Kajol. For that reason, some observers draw the line between the “classic” and “modern” Hindi films at Qayamat se qayamat tak.”

Now note I am not agreeing with all of this text, just highlighting that many do indeed consider QSQT as a pivotal movie and a significant one of its time. The last sentence is something similar to what Satyam was referring to I guess when he said “Other star sons emerged during the Bachchan reign but not one was ever connected with anything new in terms of trends and so forth.”

satyam 15 January 2009
02:19:56 pm

“With his first starring role in Qayamat se Qayamat Tak (1988), Aamir re-revived the cyclical teen romance theory of filmdom.”

This from an India Today story on the eve of Lagaan:

http://www.india-today.com/ito.....ver2.shtml

satyam 15 January 2009
02:22:45 pm

http://www.naachgaana.com/2007.....erfection/

On a related note an India Today story from 1998 clearly indicating Aamir’s position even at the time and again singling out QSQT. So much for folks who think Aamir wasn’t one of the major stars in the 90s!

Qalandar 15 January 2009
02:27:45 pm

The point being, one can agree or disagree on the significance of Qayamat Se Qayamat tak, but it has been sufficiently demonstrated that this is NOT an “only on NG” deal. So to try and prove the substantive point that there were or were not other films and how significant those were, is to move the goalposts, because the original discussion was about something else.

satyam 15 January 2009
02:28:11 pm

http://entertainment.oneindia......ng-de.html

“Aamir’s first movie in a lead role was Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak (1988). The movie marked directorial debut of Aamir’s cousin Mansoor Khan. It was a big hit of the late 80’s and it brought in a new trend of teenage romance.”

neelu 15 January 2009
02:31:12 pm

What do you want Jay? Some external affirmation? And for that you are providing Wikipedia, Taran and TOI? Well as far as QSQT and its place in romantic cinema goes – I still maintain that EDKL was a similar story of star-crossed lovers (a quintessential Romeo and Juliet tale) whose lives end in tragedy. And it had a huge impact as judged from numerous awards/nominations and its BO status that year. I do not look to the Wiki for credible sources, or the stunt PFC pulled about WIKI saying Nolan had written Ghajni would have found its way on NG! But even WIKI has this to say about that OTHER romantic comedy!
“The film was included in the Cinema India showcase, “The Changing Face of Indian Cinema”, which toured the United States in July and August 2004.[5] Indiatimes Movies ranks the movie amongst the 25 Must See Bollywood Films.[6] It was also listed among the only two Hindi Films in 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die.”

To comapre an outside view on that film and QSQT – how about the same source for both?

http://www.uiowa.edu/~incinema/dilwale.html

http://www.uiowa.edu/~incinema/qayamat.html

And this is brought up as we are saying what came before and its success is not germane to determining what inspired the later product.

For those who are belittling the contribution of EDKL – I say they were either not there or are arguing in bad faith and in a partisan manner.

satyam 15 January 2009
02:34:18 pm

LOL, this from another site:

“Its long unwieldy title led to the movie being popularly referred to by the acronym “QSQT”. This sparked off a fad of Hindi movies with long titles promoted by acronym substitutes: Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge (1995) as “DDLJ” & Hum Aapke Hain Kaun…! (1994) as “HAHK”. ”

Actually if you just google the keywords hit and the title of the film you’ll get countless sources calling it a big hit.

jayshah 15 January 2009
02:37:54 pm

neelu – so now DDLJ enters the discussion. To discount QSQT all other films are being counted

Anyway I said my piece plus Satyam’s added a few more articles.

And Q said it best. If the claim was that QSQT is considered significant “only on NG” well the claim is disproved.

NyKavi 15 January 2009
02:39:02 pm

Had Kumar Gaurav waited until 1985-6 to come out with Love Story, maybe he wouldve today been among the lexicon of superstars. But he was head by just a few years, and unfortunately, bwood is too unkind to serial flopsters. In those days, every star did minm 5-6 movies yearly, and by 1985-6 Gaurav already had sunk sizeable filmi fortunes to be considered hero material again.
Thats why QSQT gets to wear the mantle of being the trend-changing romantic movie. Because it started the succesful trend of romance once again. QSQT will remain the “break the mould” kind of movie to those who were old enough to remember the impact of it. It was the quintessential teeny-bopper love story, and a perfect date movie, in those times when dating was not even that prevalent.
Again, this is not just my own view, but that of a wide swathe of filmgoing public who ACTUALLY got to see that movie. Historically, after all the water that crossed under the bridge since QSQT, it may sound insignificant given the bigger succeses of MPK/DDLJ much later. But to a person back then, in the thick of it, this was a very relevant movie.

satyam 15 January 2009
02:39:08 pm

Heh heh… not sure what personal essays on films have to do with more factual statements expressed by Nahata and Adarsh and others..!

Anyway I’m out of this one. I feel I’m debating George Bush. I am the bigger fool for doing so. I nonetheless respond because I don’t want others reading this to get the wrong impression.

I guess the Ghajini history has started all these new ideas!

neelu 15 January 2009
02:45:23 pm

If googling and seeing films listed as big successes was the way to actually determine their success, then SR would be a big success. Fortunately for us we have better metrics. Also, since Kumar Gaurav is now a forgotten entity, there is no one left to drum up his films. Who can claim to be a fan boy today and write up Love Story in WIKIPEDIA? I thought there were mature adults on this forum who were watching films before the internet era came on. And yes in that era the constantly referred to George Bush was a non-entity too. And for such adults LS and EDKL (that long name may well have inspired the QSQT name too), would have a significance. QSQT has a significance for the fans of Aamir Khan. The posts on this thread are enough undeniable proof of that.

jayshah 15 January 2009
02:45:57 pm

Agree with that take NYKavi

neelu 15 January 2009
02:49:36 pm

NYKAVI – I was there and in the thick of it!

jayshah 15 January 2009
02:49:54 pm

“QSQT has a significance for the fans of Aamir Khan. The posts on this thread are enough undeniable proof of that.”

LOL – we have all been caught red handed by neelu

When all is lost, play the Aamir fans card…sigh…I can’t be bothered to find more links now, all the writers of those pieces will be reduced to being called Aamir fans too

rks 15 January 2009
02:50:21 pm

Aap log doosre thread mei Jaayen ya sirf CCTC ki baat karen. This thread is taking time to load and many people click due to recent comments.

NyKavi 15 January 2009
02:57:34 pm

Tastes are a matter of personal preference. An immemorable evening spent with a flame watching a particular movie in those tender teeny years makes for a lot more impact than any Internet Source can offer.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Lets just leave it at that.
And finally, a trend is said to begin a chain of similar happenings. LS/EDKL did not start or begin that chain. They were impactful, but their impact ended with their events.
However insignificant QSQT may be in BO terms, it started that trend.
But enough said. We can all agree to disagree.

BOND 007 15 January 2009
03:18:15 pm

Let’s not give any credit to anyone EXCEPT SRK, Go SRK fans, you rock !!!

neelu 15 January 2009
04:03:26 pm

Bond 007 – when all else fails, blame the SRK fans!

NyKavi – that is my point exactly – even for those who were there these films had different kinds of impact. If we bring Taran and Komal in then we should be willing to accept their say on everything and not selectively.

NyKavi 15 January 2009
04:05:07 pm

And now this:
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200901051820.htm

http://www.telegraphindia.com/.....349703.jsp

LOL, talk about life providing ammo for NG debates!

Qalandar 15 January 2009
04:15:44 pm

It isn’t just about the film being important “for Aamir fans”, I think it has been conclusively demonstrated that there are plenty of people apart from the delusional aamir fanatics on NG who think this a film of some significance. It isn’t about “accepting” Komal or Taran or anyone else: even if one disagrees this testifies to the fact that enough people think a certain thing. [Case in point: I think Salman Khan is lame, but many many people saying the opposite, while it doesn't change my personal view, shows that enough people disagree. My view testifies to my view, but what Salman's position is/was is an independent question]. If Street wanted to say that Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak is an overrated film that is a perfectly legitimate position; but when he says that only on NG is the film held in high regard or regarded as significant, then he is demonstrably wrong.

neelu 15 January 2009
04:20:27 pm

Q – Street also made some very valid points about the rise of the female superstar and the fact that this spurred the romance genre on. These female superstars are a denied entity not just on NG but everywhere. With no Sridevi, Madhuri, Juhi, Kajol – there would be no romantic films and we would be stuck in the phase where the females were merely a sideline in the story, someone to share a cigarette with in bed, if the director was daring. And now with the main heroes aging and the newer female stars not having the ability or draw, we might indeed be back in that phase again.