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Utkal

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September 4th, 2008

To quote Taran:

” Till a few years ago, traders would scoff and snigger at a film like ROCK ON!!. Believe me, most exhibitors wouldn’t be interested in playing the film. Why, a few decades ago, ARDH SATYA, CHAKRA and even JAANE BHI DO YAARO were limited to matinee and noon shows and a handful of theatres here and there. Beyond Mumbai, it was really tough to even procure theatres.

But multiplexes have changed all that. Today, the mindset has also undergone a drastic change, a change for better. And not just viewers, even writers and directors are thinking differently.”

I just observed: What is common to ” RDB’, “LRM”, ‘ Jab We Met”, ” Chak De” ” TZP’, “JTYJN” , and ” Rock On”? No foreign locations ( Unless specifically called for like in ‘Chak De” , no castle in England passing off as Indian Haveli, no duets by hero and heroine.

On the other hand look at some of the recent YRF films, ” LCMD, TRPP, TPTM, and BEH..they all have the outdtaed cliched devices of Switzerland and hero-heroine duets without having anything specific to say.

There Are 54 Responses So Far. »

  1. Comment by ideaunique on 4 September 2008:

    Quoting Taran: “I just observed: What is common to ” RDB’, “LRM”, ‘ Jab We Met”, ” Chak De” ” TZP’, “JTYJN” , and ” Rock On”? No foreign locations ( Unless specifically called for like in ‘Chak De” , no castle in England passing off as Indian Haveli, no duets by hero and heroine. ”

    3 of these movies are associated with AAMIR KHAN - he certainly knows that SCRIPT is the real hero - so all his movies made at 10 or 15 crores go on to make 60-70 crores + DVD + Satelite rights + Overseas rights - so 10 times output than the production cost - which other fella in bollywood is doing that without compromising with the quality aspect?

  2. Comment by utkal on 4 September 2008:

    This is precisely the reason why Phoonk is a hit and 1920 wont be. You see Phoonk establishes an everyday world, with everyday characters. So when somethinh untoward happens we are involved. !920 with its scottish castles and hero-looking leading man, leaves you cold and uninvolved. So the horror wont work. Poor Vikram Bhatt, he is still stuck with Raaz, while Bollywood has moved on.

    Today people want everyday characters they can empathize with. The need for glamour is there but not in the obvious way. In small towns maybe. But in metros films are not the only way to taste glamour. They attend fashion shows, live concerts, go to discos. They want an occasional escapist entertainer, with style. But what they want mostly from films is a strong emotional experience, whether it is light or heavy. The scriptwriters and directors who ignore this reality will do so at their own peril and will soon be history.

  3. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    Again the hyperbol from aamir fans - RDB barely touched 50 crores … TZP just crossed 60 crores and JTYJN is near to 55 crores at the end of ts run.

    Where did the 60-70 crores figures from from? Aamir’s belly in Delhi?

  4. Comment by utkal on 4 September 2008:

    60 crores on a production cost of 12 crores. 55 Crores on a production cost of 7 crores. Where is the hyperbole. RDB not only barely touched 50 crores , it crossed it, and it is a cult classic. And there is a life of film beyond box office collection. Lagaan, DCH, RDB,SWades ( to some extent) Chak De, TZP,LRM, Jodha akbar and JTYJN these are the most talked about movies of their times. So is Rock On curently. So were DDLJ, Baazigar, KKHH, HAHK, in their times. And Sholay, Deewar, Zanjeer, Amar Akbar Anthony, Anand, Aradhana, in their times. Some made more money, some little less money. But all made MONEY. And more importantly, these were the movies that defined movie aesthetics of their times. Influenced movie makers that followed, and gave something for Bollywood to be proud of. Otherwise we would be remembering K Bapiah who those numerous Jeetendra hits and not Hrishikesh Mukherjee or Yash Chopra.

  5. Comment by utkal on 4 September 2008:

    And when RDB made 50 crores how many other films had touched that figure?

  6. Comment by utkal on 4 September 2008:

    It’s like saying Zanzeer made only 6 crores. You have to see the figure in the context of that time window.

  7. Comment by johnnybrutal on 4 September 2008:

    ‘and when rdb made 50 cr how many films touched that figure?’
    atleast 4 to 5 films that year.

  8. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    johnny it released in jan 2006 and after that market boomed big time.How many movies notched 50 cr in 2005?None.

  9. Comment by neelu on 4 September 2008:

    In 2006 5 other films crossed 50 cr. Why go back to prior times? The market is expanding and needs to be looked at year by year. In 2005 MP only made 29+ while No Entry made 44+. So what is the issue?

  10. Comment by neelu on 4 September 2008:

    Let the BEH bashing begin yet again! Now that the BO numbers are telling a different story we can start on content. Of course we MUST look to Taran Adarsh for affirmation when talking of content. God forbid if we look at the likes of Rangan - he is becoming too “quirky” and mainstream for our tastes. Better a BO analyst masquerading as a reviewer than a real reviewer!

  11. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    Neelu,market does not increase in yearly fits,its noquantum mechanics here,its just that market increased heavily after the release of rdb, the way it has not done earlier.Now we are not talking about the same thing just after 6 months.

  12. Comment by jayshah on 4 September 2008:

    MP made only 29Cr by design i.e. it pretty much flopped.

    Best way to look at market is by openings, rather historic openings. The acceleration started in 2004. MHN was historic at 13Cr, then V-Z at 17Cr. 2005 the record went to MP by a margin but it was still 17Cr range (however, this is a lower figure naturely since a drop probably occured in week 1 itself, it could have been more had it sustained I suspect)

    The point about RDB is the above two mentioned movies opened “better” than RDB, but it was RDB that powered to 50Cr. This is obviously down to it being a huge audience hit, MP not being so and V-Z being a hit at best.

    But the market boom really happened in 2006, when a number of films (Fanaa, Krrish, KANK & D2) all broke records one after the other. In this year comparing a D2 to a RDB is tricky enough. Because strictly in conext, if D2 came in Jan and RDB came in Nov, the print count would have been a hell of lot different.

    Bottom line is, the later the release in the past 3-4 years the bigger the advantage. Because the growth in the market is phenomenal.

    Compare RDB and Race. Race is opening twice as big. One cannot draw any conclusions from these 2 films 2 years apart. The market is in absolute completely different today then it was at this point last year or the year before. Even the “adjusted” figures do not do justice because they only take into account “price inflation” not the astonishing growth of new multiplexes etc.

    Producers/distributors also want to out-wit the predeccessor. If YR release 550 prints of Fanaa, Filmcraft go that much further the next time for Krrish. Then YR fire back even more with D2. Because they understand the market potential of the past, and they can go for that and some more and they want records!

    If Main Hoo Naa released today - forget inflation, it would open no less than 35-40Cr. It would nett more than its total gross in 2004.
    If RDB released today it would never open to 16Cr in today’s market, heck films like Thoda Pyar Thoda Magic or Jannat are opening here! It would assuredly open in excess of 30Cr.

    In that sense I do find it silly to compare 2006 films overall. Aamir’s 2 releases came first, then Hrithik, then SRK, then SRK then Hrithik. If the “order” was disturbed it would assuredly affect the netts. So a 50Cr nett in Jan 07 is pretty good going, considering the market potential at that single point in time. By November D2 raked in 80Cr+ and this is indicative of D2 being a bigger film BUT also the market being that much bigger.

  13. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    And who is indulging in BAH bashing.Its just that it has not connected with the audience the way JTYJN has and the number shows.

  14. Comment by jayshah on 4 September 2008:

    And abhishek said what I wanted too, in fewer words…

  15. Comment by rudresh on 4 September 2008:

    i did not understand the logic that market increses manifold after RDB.
    Thing can be that when RDB releases market already had increased that why it crosses 50 cr other wise may be it would have even not crossed 50 cr.Other films after that crosses 50 cr easily also proves that.
    Or does someone here beleive that RDb alos is responisble for the bollywood market size

  16. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    Why hyperbole??

    RDB did 51 crores, Fanaa did 53 crores, TZP did 61 crores and JTYJN did 55 crores … so a fan claiming Aamir’s movies does 60-70 crores in not hyperbole? Give me a break!

    Ghajni shud do well over 70 crores … but till now Aamir’s movies are in 50-60 crores bracket … mostly due to his less number of releases.

    Why pick and choose RDB as the point where market expanded? number of prints affects the opening .. but not the final gross … there were more takers for D2, Krrish, LRM than a RDB or Fanaa .. and even if all these movies wud have released today, still the likes of D2, Krrish & LRM wud outgross a RDB or Fanaa by the same margin or so … but yes the opening numbers wud be different due to larger prints and also trending wud not be the same on larger prints now.

    Claiming RDB wud open to 30 crores now is same as saying D2 will open to 50-55 crores and easily cross 100 crores if it is released now.

    2005 movies hardly had the charm and appeal like the biggies of 2006 … underperformance of movies lke Bluffmaster which did just 16-17 crores in the end of 2005 does not imply market drastically changed in the next few months.

    Utkal - Regarding ur ‘blockbuster’ logic for Rangeela .. in reality it was like a Sarkar … a hit in Mumbai but only decent in other places … not an all-india hit… Amir was a major star in 90s but except Dil and RH, his hits were not exactly biggies in true BO sense … and an argument on perception does not change box-office verdicts.

  17. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    Ach,nobody is proposing RDB as some sort of cut off for market expansivity.Market is always increasing,its just that in some period it does so tremendously.Say a K3G opens to 13 cr(if i’m correct) in 2001 and we are till May 2006 at just 17 cr as opening week recoerd,its not such a significant increase in terms of percentage or in absolute terms.And what happens thereafter just in span of 16 months(OSO) the opening gets doubled and i’m using nov 2006 bcoz by that time i’m pretty sure any of the big three amongst srk\aamir\Hr could easily get to 40 cr opening in a massy fare.Its not just about setting cut offs in the usual sense of the term, one could easily sense the rate of expansion,now in april 08 even saif manages 37 cr opener!Clearly the market from 2001-2005 has not increased the same way as 2006-now,may be RDB was the first one but market has sine tripled just in 2 years span.

  18. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    Yes its evident that market has increased a lot with significant increse in th multiplex business in th last few years as compared to the first half of this decade when the multiplex concept was first introduced.

    Its very difficult to judge tha market of 2005, coz it was a year where SRK only did a unconventional Paheli and Aamir did a MP (which after the 17 crore opening could have reached 45-50 crores in its time if it was accepted by the audience) … 05 ws more a year of non-universal hits of medium grossers … that might be the reason why 06 looked so big for bollywood.

    Lets not forget Salman (quite past his prime at the BO) had the highest grosser in 05 with around 45 crores … and even today his blockbusters like Partner does 60 crores … thats the same range as a non-masala film like TZP, CDI or JA does! In short 05 was an underperformer and 06 too good for bollywood which does make market expansion seem to be bigger than it was.

  19. Comment by jayshah on 4 September 2008:

    Agree abhishek, I was NOT trying to suggest RDB as a “trigger” what not. Only the acceleration in 2006 was more evident. This could also be due to the kind of films in 2005 vs 2006 aswell…but also we saw the increase in 2007 and now in 2008. From 01-04, it was more a stable or steadily growing market, there onwards its been more noticeable, with 06-08 being very noticeable.

  20. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    From the performance of bollywood movies in the last 2 years .. its evident that an accepted commrcial blockbuster has the potential to gross 85-90 crores and a TZP,CDI, JA around 60 crores … the trending depends more on the number of prints … as does the opening figures … but whatever way you go, these seems to be the upper limits in the present market dynamics.

  21. Comment by rockstar on 4 September 2008:

    bollywood is growing at a anual rate of 10% multiplexes are flooding the market and will continue to in future will agree in last 3 years or so there has been a trimendous growth and its not available in just films but its evident in the profit of various entertainment companies

  22. Comment by rockstar on 4 September 2008:

    jay: on the personal front i never liked the climax of rdb but its a fact that it was an impactful movie

    jesica lal case , people protesting with candle lights etc etc there are many example

    u just can’t judge everything with business if u do it is equivalent to a work of munshi

  23. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    A minor correction - a TZP,CDI, JA kind of deal has the potential to attract enough crowds to collect 60-65 crores with its WOM deal … TZP of course had the advantage of tax free status and so did CDI after sometime.

    An All-Time-Blockbuster at this stage has the potential to cross the 100 crore net mark.

  24. Comment by rks on 4 September 2008:

    I will not jump in till you guys discuss business of RDB but if you start talking about politics and theme of RDB, I just need to pull that 126 page document that lady wrote ;)

  25. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    What document,rks?

  26. Comment by rks on 4 September 2008:

    “An All-Time-Blockbuster at this stage has the potential to cross the 100 crore net mark.”

    If a movie with good WOM and massy feel, has potential to earn more than 100cr. In last two decade I think HAHK,DDLJ,RH,Gadar would have done 100cr in today’s sense.

  27. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    Achilies agree on the type of movies in 2005 to a certain extent,but my point still stands-tremendous growth in market and genre-i’m pretty sure saif couldn’t open a movie at more than 10 cr in any genre till jan2006 and where he is in apr08-37 cr!

  28. Comment by rks on 4 September 2008:

    Abhishekr:RANG DE BASANTI - CONSUMPTION, CITIZENSHIP
    AND THE PUBLIC SPHERE

    Neelu: ;)

  29. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    Race opened at 35 crores … but in general Saif is not opening his films well be it TRRP, Tashan, TMTP or even an Omkara. Akshay on the other hand has been able to use the market expansion to his own advantage … but he still cant go beyond the 70-75 crore range.

    The market has expanded, but the highest grossers are still in the 85 crores range … so its not just market expansion, its also about how good the movies are.

    Will CCTC, Ghajni or RNBDJ be the answer to D2 and OSO? … and if so can they gross significantly more than these two based on market expansion?

  30. Comment by johnnybrutal on 4 September 2008:

    there’s no way rh would do 100crs in todays time, no way at all!

  31. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    Yes,Ach thats why i have also talked about genre.Even a failed HR massy fare would have done 60 cr in feb08,as much as liked JA did!And its just that akshay has not tried any different stuff,i don’t think akshay will do more than a 10 cr in blue umbrella!Even in massy fares he is not big as srk\aamir\Hr.Its just that he is more prolific and media playing the pr agency of BW more than anything else these days.It must break new Kinngs too every week as breaking news.

  32. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    Media wants news to sell … so an opening was enough to hail a new Kinng … now the noise has subsided to a great extent with a not a so great follow-up and other movies stealing the limelight - be it a Phoonk a RO or a BeH … still 70-75 crores is more than decent imo.

    And u have a Akki movie every 2 months! No wonder Akki is the darling of the media.

  33. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    Ach,its not just that 2006 was too good a year for BW with five 50cr+ grosser otherwise 2007 has five 60cr+ grosers(with no Hr release otherwise it would have been 7).More than anything else we can see how the market has increased in this period.

  34. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    Good point on abhishek … in that sense 2008 has not lived upto the expectations yet … one 70+ grosser SIK, two 60+ (JA and Race) and one 50+ grosser JTYJN … Jannat,Phoonk or BeH even with hit status did not dig a big hole on the audience’s pocket … but then there are enough of biggies still lined up.

  35. Comment by goodfella on 4 September 2008:

    Wow, RKS, thanks for that…

  36. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    Johnnybrutal,cinema in general is most commercial of all arts and commercial cinema moreso.So when one says Gone With Wind will be big today we are not talking about the same product in the superficial sense but its sensibility say a Titanic in todays time.Mannerism,dialogues et al are more of a product of time than anything else and hence just a fad and product of its time than anything else.When one speaks of great Greek playwrights one is not talking about how comedians wearing contorted masks in their plays as was the style those days but something much deeper-sensibilty.If it is correct for a more stable art,literature then it is certainly for most flashy and flamboyant of all arts-cinema where even the trash have to be updated every 10 years or so!Hence when we speak of RH(a supposed trash) then certainly in 2008 we are talking about updated trash.(I’m just using RH as an example,no offense meant to any RH fan here)

  37. Comment by abhishekr on 4 September 2008:

    Thanks rks for the link.

  38. Comment by rks on 4 September 2008:

    JohnyBrutal: I am not saying releasing today. I am saying if at time of release the ticket prices were like today they had enough audience to take past 100cr. I know multiplex audience would throw the movie in current time.

    ps: I have seen craze for RH in Kanpur. It ran for many weeks and weekend show you couldn’t get tickets in black (around 13th week). I saw it on first day night show and was disappointed with the movie. But I can not deny the fact that audience liked it. I don’t know currently but movies use to release on Thursday in Kanpur and RH and Ghatak released on Tuesday around Diwali. Ghatak also did good business initially but faded.

  39. Comment by Ravi on 4 September 2008:

    I don’t if I said this before Abhishek, but looks like you are a pretty balanced person with balanced views.

    Maybe it is in the name.

  40. Comment by sv on 4 September 2008:

    Even in massy fares he is not big as srk\aamir\Hr.Its just that he is more prolific and media playing the pr agency of BW more than anything else these days.It must break new Kinngs too every week as breaking news.

    I don’t agree with this.How many massy films srk,aamir act?
    HR I agree is big,but only in dhoom 2.He could only manage just more than 60 crores from JA.srk,aamir can’t give above 75 crores grosser.Only HR can give.But we will know when kites releases.

  41. Comment by jayshah on 4 September 2008:

    rks - thanks for providing that link again. This time I read it (skim read) and its fairly comprehensive, as comprehensive 126 pages can be! LOL!

    I am pretty sure the film affected the audience now ;-)

  42. Comment by Achilles on 4 September 2008:

    Sv - about ur point on big grossers …. Hrithik showed it with Krrish and D2 … SRK showed it with CDI and OSO … Aamir’s RDB and Fanaa did very well when it released and so did TZP … they are not considered the big three without reason .. and they are doing different stuffs … not like akshay who has no range neither that big a magnitude.

    As for JA, an Aamir and SRK in place of Hrithik wudnt have increased its collections … but anyone else in that movie and it wud had been a disaster.

    On aamir’s magnitude … Ghajni will answer you … as will RNBDJ and later Kites … after SIK’s opening i thought 85 crores wud be the final net (and my expectations were def less than the 100 crores and what not that some claimed at NG!)

  43. Comment by rks on 4 September 2008:

    Jay: It has lot of information not pertaining to movie but yes it is very comprehnsive. I have read few portions.

  44. Comment by jayshah on 4 September 2008:

    Actually they have done all kinds of things…like measure the number of pre-post RDB internet bloggers, documented the kind of discussions that took place on blogs and other studies.

    I did not know the film came with such a whopping marketing strategy, I knew it was big, but it says 40% of the total cost was marketing - usually the figure is only 5% for bolly movies.

    No more need to argue on SB about RDB now, provide the link and its enough! LOL!

  45. Comment by Dionysiac on 4 September 2008:

    A good discussion here! Agree with what has been said about market expansion.

    This year so far has been a bit of dampener,Race and SIK which were expected to be big grossers considering the huge opening they got,underperformed.In an absolute sense we are still yet to see a movie opening big and trending well something we saw in a D2 and Krrish in 2006 and OSO and Welcome in 2007.Hopefully movies like Ghajni,RNBDJ and CCTC(if releases)towards the end of this year do not disappoint or under perform.As I have said JTYJN still remains the biggest success of this year both in terms of end gross and trending followed by JA.

  46. Comment by Dionysiac on 4 September 2008:

    rks: I have decided that I am not gonna argue with you RDB in future. :)

  47. Comment by Dionysiac on 4 September 2008:

    “on RDB”

  48. Comment by utkal on 4 September 2008:

    I am thoroughly disappointed by the amount of posts expended on BO figures. That’s the point at all. How much have Trantino films grossed? But do peole discuss Roland Emmerich or Tarantino? BO figures are one small component of a film’s impact. The cultural impact of a RDB or TZP is far beyond what the BO collections can capture. And that is something beyond the likes of Akshay Kumar. I mean Rajendra Kumar can have gazillion hits and that can make him Jubilee Kumar but not Dilip Kumar. Jeetendra can have scores of silver jubilee and golden jubilees, and that does not make him Amitabh Bachchan. Yes films are a commercial medium, but dont tell me the is any place less commercial than Holywood. But a Tarantino and Scorcese are the ones discussed thee, not Emmerich and Frank Coraci. Pacino, De Niro, Nicholson, Brando are the demi-gods, in spite of not having too many films grossing more than 250 million. The obsession with BO figures shows we are bean counters and not film lovers.

  49. Comment by sv on 4 September 2008:

    utkal,Jeetendra is a B grade star who acted in remakes in 1980s.
    Infact I doubt he had any straight hits.I don’t think he gave many silver jubilee,golden jubilee films.I think the only notable hit was himmatwala.
    So is mithun chakraborthy in 1980s.But he is a good actor.

    You can’t put tarantino in the same league as scorcese.
    Tarantino is more like a RGV of hollywood,who makes innovative
    films with low budget and succeeds.Scorcese is like a yash chopra who is quite big.

  50. Comment by utkal on 5 September 2008:

    I am not equiating Tarantino with Yash Chopra. Waht is the biggest hit of Scorcese? How much has it made? Much less than Yash Chopra;s big grossers. But in Hollywood, do they care? They crae for the films he has made. similarly, Woody Allen. One of the most respected directors, and in his entire career of 30+ films, only two must have made more than 100 million. That is why Bollywood can never command the respect and occupy the cultural space that hollywood occupies in Western culture. In Bolywood we only talk money. ( And we say Western society is materialistic!)

  51. Comment by jayshah on 5 September 2008:

    utkal - agree with your last two comments completely…

  52. Comment by Kaveetaa Kaul on 5 September 2008:

    Ole Utkal !! Agree in toto.

    If I may add ..
    two areas besides BO that BW is obsessed with and which in comparative terms seem less crucial in HW circles. a)’Awards’ as a validation of talent,.Alfred Hitchcock never received and Oscar in his entire career and yet every maker worth his salt has at some time or another paid his salutations to he maker.

    b)The fantasy over the Numero Uno slot..wonder if Robert de Niro, Hoffman, Paccino, Brando, etc ever concerned themselves with the number game.

  53. Comment by rockstar on 5 September 2008:

    brilliant discussion and some great set of points by utkal and kaveeta

  54. Comment by rockstar on 5 September 2008:

    “i just observed: What is common to ” RDB’, “LRM”, ‘ Jab We Met”, ” Chak De” ” TZP’, “JTYJN” , and ” Rock On”? ”

    will add jwm instead of phoonk , they all had good promotions or they where backed by good production houses and has the required masala elements

    if the different and real smaller films where working films like johnny gaddar, manorma ,black friday etc etc would not have bombed

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