TASHAN yields as much as FANAA?
The director of the much maligned multi-starrer TASHAN, Vijay Krishna Acharya, is all set to direct another venture for the Yash Raj banner. He disclosed this in an interview, earlier this week, to a respected scribe. But that was always on the cards, keeping in view the record of the failed directors at the premier production house. Be it Sanjay Gadhvi (MERE YAAR KI SHAADI HAI) or Kunal Kohli (MUJHSE DOSTI KAROGE), the Chopras have always given a chance to their failed directors to redeem themselves.
A statement in the above mentioned interview, where Vijay Krishna Acharya (Victor) claimed that TASHAN (without multiplexes) yielded as much as FANAA in its opening week is creating a lot of controversy.
Well, here is the explanation of what the TASHAN director meant. The Aamir-Kajol starrer FANAA (without Gujarat) netted an impressive 21-22 crores in its opening week from India. On the other hand, TASHAN netted a below par 18.5 crores. However, due to it�s predominantly single screen release (where the distributor�s share are higher), its first week distributor’s share was 11 crores (from India), almost the same as that of the multiplex heavy FANAA!
However, it is but natural that in the coming week’s TASHAN’s collections will be no match for the rock steady FANAA in its follow up weeks.
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Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
And to add, Fanaa released all but nearly 2 years ago. The director’s comments don’t mean much. Its like saying Tashan opened better than Sholay and forgetting to account for inflation.
Comment by Tango on 9 May 2008:
You are right Jayshah. That too has to be accounted for.
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
Tango bhai, when are you watching Bhoothnath and what do you hear as far as talk gooes , now that it has released.
Comment by ILG on 9 May 2008:
Ravi,
Do you have a financial stake in Bhootnath?
If unflinching persistence of a single fan could make a movie a hit, Bhootnath would have it made!
I think Bhootnath will be off to a slow start but will do fine overall.
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
That is how I feel about every Bachchan movie since I was a kid, the only difference is this time I am showing it more openly.
I was up for most of the night to check and see if any new reviews were up etc, I don’t even think Bachchan does that for his movies.
My wife always tells me that I am more involved in the outcome of Bachchan movies than the legend himself.
Comment by ILG on 9 May 2008:
Ravi,
Maan gaye aap ko.
I see my reflection in you. Am the same way but a little less open about it.
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
Re: “The failure of Yash Raj’s Tashan on account of low-key promotions…”
This is incorrect: promotions can explain why enough people do or do not go to watch a particular movie (and Tashan was not promoted less than other recent Yashraj films); they can’t explain why those who DO watch a movie end up disliking it.
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
‘My wife always tells me that I am more involved in the outcome of Bachchan movies than the legend himself.’
I actually though you were going to say something else there (after than…) Ravi but glad you didn’t!!!
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
[I left the above comment on this thread because I'm unable to leave comments on sandy's interview of Kohli; don't know if others are facing the same problem.]
Ravi: I salute you.
Comment by Arun on 9 May 2008:
Ravi,
Do you have a financial stake in Bhootnath?
Ravi= Ravi Chopra?
Will watch Bhoothnath! The kid looks super-cute and the chemistry between Mr. Bachchan and the kid should be interesting.
Ravi Bhai: Saw Kantri! Didn’t like it much. Done to death storyline…second half is too boring. NTR is good though, has danced well in couple of songs.
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
Thanks Arun for the feedback on Kantri,and let us know your thoughts on Bhoothnath.
Comment by ILG on 9 May 2008:
Ravi,
This is what a true fan is being about. As opposed to fair weather fans who say -I used to love Amitabh but lately………
Just like a true Yankee fan who follows all their games whether they are doing well or not and roots for them every day.
Comment by ILG on 9 May 2008:
BTW, there was story in The Boston Herald that a strange Bostonian of Indain descent was seen accosting strangers on the street, urging them to take their entire extended family to see a certain Bollywood flick!
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
This is ridiculous for the reasons Jay mentioned but also otherwise. Fanaa did not make less than 22-23 crores in week 1. And Tashan has not made more than 15 crores. I disagree with both BOI and IBOS on this. Sure, with the multiplexes it would have made 25-30 (again I think the BOI number of 32-33 is too high) but Fanaa would have made at least 25 crores or more with Gujarat. So really there is no comparison between Tashan and the Fanaa numbers. Incidentally Fanaa was extraordinary in the North. This was in fact the strongest region for the film though of course it was excellent everywhere.
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Ravi: Even though this isn’t my kind of subject Bhootnath has all of a sudden fired me up a bit. Can’t explain it but the idea of watching a film totally dominated by Bachchan is not an everyday occurrence. Before a God you don’t think, you submit!
By the way I don’t do so anymore but I used to up until a few years ago — stay up till 3 or 4 to check out the new reviews on a Bachchan release and figure out which way things were going. I think I probably did this through Khakee or so and then only intermittently since.
I’m sure your wife is a Bachchan fan.. or she wouldn’t be your wife!
I’m planning to check out the film tomorrow night in all probability. But certainly by Sun. By the way my commiserations Ravi, you will have to tolerate SRK here as well even if for limited time! See what he’s done?! You were avoiding him in the theater and he gets into a Bachchan film!
Did you ever see Mohabbatein, K3G, VZ in the theater?
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
and KANK?
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
Saw all of those in the theater Satyam, if Bachchan is there in a movie hwoever small his role is, that for me is his movie and unfortunately I have to tolerate the others in that movie.
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
Bhoothnath excites me for that one reason Satyam more than Sarkar Raj or anything bcoz , it is a solo starrer and I would take that kind of a hit any day over multi starrers.
With the reviews coming out good , that has raised my hopes a lot and let us see how it plays out.
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
Looks like a slow start to Bhoothnath according to Taran Adarsh, so hopefully the WOM will help it pick up.
Comment by Myna on 9 May 2008:
“The director’s comments don’t mean much. Its like saying Tashan opened better than Sholay and forgetting to account for inflation.”
The director may not really mean that Tashan made equal or more profits than Fanaa in 1st week, but I think he is just comparing numbers of first week (without taking into account any other factors) and saying both are almost same.
Here the makers(director) themselves are saying the numbers are almost same, but its a different scenario at NG with a good difference between Tashan and Fanaa. And its funny to see claims that they are more correct than the makers!!
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Ravi, Sarkar is different from those other films though. Having a lesser role in an Abhishek film is very different from having one in a SRK film for the obvious reason. But Sarkar in any case is really about the Bachchan signature. And so whatever Abhishek does even elsewhere adds to Bachchan’s prestige and legacy but even moreso with the Sarkar kind of paradigm.
Comment by ILG on 9 May 2008:
Myna,
Same numbers dont mean much. As Jay said they were released at different times and things have changed quite a bit. This opening is several times that of KNPH. Does that mean anything? Surely not. Its an attempt to put a saving face on something that unfortunately is a failure.
Comment by Myna on 9 May 2008:
ILG: yes, thats what I am saying too, same #s doesnt mean it made more profits or really made more money. He is just blindly comparing and saying they are same.
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
‘Its an attempt to put a saving face on something that unfortunately is a failure.’
Correct. It is either to ‘bring’ up Tashan or to ‘bring’ down Fanaa. He is better off accepting the numbers are poor AND saying it is YR fault for not releasing in multiplexes.
Comment by henry on 9 May 2008:
IMO watching every single film of your favorite star even if you know it’s going to be bad is just pure craziness.
I don’t think fans should reward their favorite star for doing garbage, even if that means being called a “fair weather” fan.
Comment by henry on 9 May 2008:
It takes great will power and some degree of mental instability to willingly subject yourself to films like Aag, Kyon Ho Gay Na, Hum Kaun Hai etc.
Comment by Myna on 9 May 2008:
But there is another point too…Tashan is an outright rejected movie and got bad reviews and bad wom all over, didnt release in multiplexes for a week. Where as Fanaa I think was better received by the audiences(there was Gujarat issue though). May be he is just trying to say that Tashan is not as bad as it made out to be. Anyway its a poor attempt by him.
Comment by Simply Som on 9 May 2008:
came back from watching Bhoothnath, left me underwhelmed.definitely has a Bahgbaan hangover expecially in the 2nd half and the heavy melodrama that follows debars the movie from becoming what could have been a good kid’s fare.very much drags towards the end and finally ends up being a dissapointment.
as far the performances are concerned, Amitabh tries his best but the poor script and dialogues let him down.the kid Aman Siddique is adorable but the sheer innocence we expect in a kid like him is missing. Juhi dissapoints big time, gets too mechanical.SRK has nothing to offer, wasted!!
ps:I dont really understand why some film makers try to delineate the teachers and the principal of a school as buffoons and give enough scope for them being ridiculed.I had the same problem with TZP, now Bhoothnath does the same.
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
Thanks for the feedback Som dear, dissapointed in hearing that.
How was the crowd and reaction and what is your gut feeling?
Comment by rks on 9 May 2008:
Link
1. Number of brackets
in small town. It did very good business in small towns [Just opposite of what people think; that aamir movies don't do well in B and C centers].
2. Fanaa released in 519 cinemas compared to 745 for Tashan. Link
3. As Jay stated, probably director doesn’t understand the concept of Time-Value of money.
From distributor perspective he might be right but he is not talking about whole picture.
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
I used to watch every Amitabh film in the cinemas, but of late I have missed a couple (Hum Kaun Hain wasn’t playing in Manhattan, but I suspect I would’ve passed; I did pass on RGV ki Aag as well). I don’t think it’s being a fair weather fan: I did watch Kyun Ho Gaya Na and Lakshya, and came to the conclusion that as an Amitabh fan I couldn’t continue to watch him doing meaningless roles.
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
I concur with your opinion Q bhai.
Comment by Simply Som on 9 May 2008:
Ravi bhai: the theater where i watched had about 20-25% occupancy.some people seemed to be liking the first half, overall i guessed the feedback was so-so.
Comment by rks on 9 May 2008:
“I dont really understand why some film makers try to delineate the teachers and the principal of a school as buffoons and give enough scope for them being ridiculed.”
It requires good skills to have a story without antagonist.
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Ravi: apparently Bhootnath has picked up in a big way in the evening shows..
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
On that note, Bhootnath sounds like a full-fledged role, hence I’ll certainly watch this in the cinema.
[Aside: for all the talk of crap films Amitabh is in, he has actually STOPPED doing this sort of thing, what with Yashraj being a thing of the past for him, as well as stuff like Kyun Ho Gaya Na. Over the last year or two Amitabh has been in Eklavya, Cheeni Kum, Nishabd, and now Bhootnath, which seem to be more worthy than Lakshya, Veer-Zaara, Jhoom Barabar Jhoom, etc. Now films like Nishabd and Aag haven't worked at the box office, but he was basically the main event in both (and Nishabd was a pretty good film too, RGV's best in a long time, and hands down better than Sarkar). All of these roles might not be to my liking (I dislike seeing him in servile roles as in Eklavya) but they show that he's selecting meatier stuff now.]
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
One other thing missing for Tashan directors box office notes is Fanaa took a historic opening at the box office. This is not only a question of just pure numbers. Most films today even with an average opening in over 600 cinemas can beat Fanaa’s opening. But it really is a nonsense point to make. In fact the film he has ‘chosen’ to compare with is baffling. Since Fanaa, even JBJ and TRRP and CDI have recorded in 20Cr range. Why pick Fanaa…from all these YR releases Fanaa is the one which took the best opening…he is making a comparison with wrong movie for obvious reasons…
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
“I don’t think fans should reward their favorite star for doing garbage, even if that means being called a “fair weather” fan.”
Henry: But the point precisely is that bachchan isn’t just a “favorite star”! The way I see it it’s about fidelity to an event. I did miss Aag incidentally.
“It takes great will power and some degree of mental instability to willingly subject yourself to films like Aag, Kyon Ho Gay Na, Hum Kaun Hai etc.”
No more nor less than the one exhibited by the followers of all organized religions! All such faiths begin with exactly such remarkable myths. Bachchan has the potency of such for our time!
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
RKS: on aamir and small towns, I think it depends upon the subject; so a Rangeela couldn’t reasonably be expected to do well across the board, but a Raja Hindustani and Fanaa were strong in B and C-class centers as well. Rang De Basanti was more of an A-center deal.
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Agreed completely Jay. I also wondered why this film (out of so many possible ones) was picked!
Comment by rks on 9 May 2008:
” I think it depends upon the subject”
It always is, except when Mithun or Sunny is starring.
Comment by Tango on 9 May 2008:
Ravi bhai -”Tango bhai, when are you watching Bhoothnath and what do you hear as far as talk goes , now that it has released.”
Ravi Bhai I would have watced it today itself, but believe me my double invigliation duties from today itself are getting to me. But come what may, I am on casual leave on Monday and will watch it come what may.
I am also happy that many others have finally woken up to the dact that an Amitabh Bachchan solo has released. Believe me apart from Aag and Boom, I have always watched Bachchan solos at the first instance.
Comment by Tango on 9 May 2008:
ILG Bhai - “Ravi,
Do you have a financial stake in Bhootnath?
If unflinching persistence of a single fan could make a movie a hit, Bhootnath would have it made!
I think Bhootnath will be off to a slow start but will do fine overall.”
Very sad but you seemed to have missed a smalltime (maybe fed fake Bachchan
) fan’s enthu for Bhoothnath, that was in place much before Ravi bhai’s.
Comment by ILG on 9 May 2008:
Henry,
I offered a sports analogy in anticipation of your defense. I have developed tremendous respect for you as a nuanced movie goer and so will never subject you to kind of derision I reserve for certain members. Fandom demands a certain degree of loyalty and commitment from both sides. As a die hard Yankee fan, I patronise them whether they are winning or losing. Or would go to watch Sachin even when he is going thru a lean patch. If I proclaim to be a Yankee fan when they are winning World Series, one after one but do not show up when they are in doldrums, I wouldnt be a true Yankee fan. At the same time I expect the players to give it all. A play off game is a life and death issue for me as a fan and it should be the smae for players. A player who says its just a game or its just a sport loses my respect. And same with movies. I, as a Amitabh fan will watch every movie of his in my power.
More importantly, he keeps up his end of the bargain. Say what ne may about his choices, but he is never guilty of mailing it in. He is sincere in all his movies. And nothing personifies his sincerity more than his willingness to engage with his fans via his blog. He is never going to patronise his fans with statements like - Messages are for post office, films are for entertaiment. Nor is he going to tkae fans for granted by acting in repititive soul less films. One may not like a Boom or Aag or Nishabd but there is a quest for newer horizons even there. Do I occasionally get exasperated with his choices / Sure, I do but then I get frustrated when Sachin plays a bad shot or Mussina throws a bad pitch. But come next pitch or next ball and I am rooting for them again.
Not every one who has liked or admired Amitabh at some point in time is a fan in this sense as it requires a kind of passion and loyalty that few are capable of.
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
ILG although I agree with your sports analogy (nearly) I think its slightly different for movies. I would Sachin if he was playing against any team in the world, in whatever form. Same goes for a few other sportsman and teams. HOWEVER, I would not waste my time watching Aamir in a film like Mela. A film is a total package, seldom have I seen truly poor films where the actor works so much so that I would sit thru the movie.
I don’t believe the pre-requiste of being a ‘true’ fan is to sit thru anything and everything of that actor. Because an actor is not bigger than the movie (for me anyway). If the movie sucks, I’d rather spend my hard earned time another way.
With my fav team Spurs its different. Its close to un-conditional love man. Whatever, whenever I’ll watch em, BUT sometimes I cannot watch the tv when I ‘know’ they have lost the game. When I know Sachin is out, I’m not going to switch the tv on to see him get out!
Ultimately it is not a sin or crime to be critical of a cherished possession. And it may hurt some to see something dis-integrate too. Not to say Big B has done this at all, this was just a general comment. Though in relation to Big B I don’t think its an unfair charge to suggest that he could have post 98 quite easily done 10 less films because his talent is wasted in a few films.
The ‘true’ fan statement is hard to digest since what defines a true fan? I’ve never been to see my football team play, my friends say I am not a true fan. But I consider myself a true fan because most of the time nearly everyday I will try to find out the latest news on my club. I’ll jump of my seat when they score a goal. Is it loyalty that defines a true fan? Loyalty through good and bad times. Reality of life is, if you have a best friend and you both been loyal to each other for yrs, and he sleeps with your gf etc. there is a limit to everyone’s personal tolerance level and loyalty.
‘Not every one who has liked or admired Amitabh at some point in time is a fan in this sense as it requires a kind of passion and loyalty that few are capable of.’
Indeed BUT I disagree with potential negative vibe of putting down the one’s who lose passion somewhat.
Hope I don’t ruffle any feather’s with my comment!
Comment by Ravi on 9 May 2008:
You are too sweet to ruffle any feathers Jay.
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
Re: “I would not waste my time watching Aamir in a film like Mela. A film is a total package, seldom have I seen truly poor films where the actor works so much so that I would sit thru the movie.”
I too would not like to waste time watching Aamir in Mela. But that’s the difference where Amitabh Bachchan is concerned: take him away, and films like Khuddar, Yaarana, would be B/C-grade films — they are watchable only because of him (and some hit songs), and that was enough to propel them to huge hits. Even some of the Prakash Mehra films are this way: Namak Halaal and Sharaabi are in no way akin to Trishul or Kaala Pathar: take Bachchan away from Namak halal and Sharaabi, and one is left with a mess.
I don’t agree with ILG’s implied moral judgment here, but I think he’s correct as a factual matter: no one else that I’m aware of in Hindi cinema makes garbage watchable, and even elevates it to “quality” (as in Namak Halaal).
Comment by ILG on 9 May 2008:
Fair points Jay. As we all know the word ‘fan’ is derived from ‘fanatic’. I think what I was trying to differentiate was between a ‘true’ fan and a casual fan. There is nothing derogatory about being a ‘casual’ fan or referring to someone as such. To each his own. But former type of fans are definitely more passionate and that translates into other interests in life in general too.
To put it in a language your hormone driven mind can possibly understand - ‘True’ love is when you love your girl and wish her well even after she has left you for some other man and even more so if she has left you for another girl!
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
ILG: with your comments about the Yankees you have “opened yourself up” in a very moving way. The passion and disappointment really comes through. As a Yankees fan, I did begin to resent “fair weather” fans when they were winning — especially because they would assume I too was one of them (even though I’ve been a fan since 1991, when they were going nowhere). And this is 20 times more true of the Indian cricket team — in fact if I am watching a match I will watch till the very end, as I wouldn’t like the pain of defeat to only be shared by the players (the Day 5 Bangalore 2005 implosion, which I watched staying up all night, is probably the most painful experience of my life; the flopping of Toofan and Jaadugar was second; losing the love of my life was a distant third).
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
Possibly Q - but back to Sachin since Satyam did make an interesting comparison in a comment to Big B, I love watching Sachin in any given time in his career so far. But there will come a time whether it be age or loss of form that it will be time to end. And every person has a certain level of tolerance as to when his time should be. Some have already called for his name. Some more tolerant (could say smarter, could say more patient) have said he is class and will fight back. But I wouldn’t by the latter if Sachin scores ducks left right and centre and shows signs of deterioration.
It is everyone’s own personal judgement and yours too when you say Big B has risen above some awful scripts. But you said it right, moral judgement shouldn’t come into this.
‘I think he’s correct as a factual matter: no one else that I’m aware of in Hindi cinema makes garbage watchable, and even elevates it to “quality” (as in Namak Halaal).’
Have not seen it, but again that is more opinion than fact. Example, my mum is a die hard Big B fan but doesn’t want to watch Bhootnath because of genre. Does that make her any ‘less’ fan of Big B then anyone else?
Comment by ILG on 9 May 2008:
Re:Example, my mum is a die hard Big B fan but doesn’t want to watch Bhootnath because of genre. Does that make her any ‘less’ fan of Big B then anyone else?
LOL.It is the ultimate sign of a losing battle when you bring in Ma- Bahen into an argument!
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
Re: “Have not seen it…”
‘Nuff said.
Sharam nahin aati Jay, apna moon kaala kar ke aaye ho?
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
LOL ILG. That was not my intention. Its a real life example.
My point is fans can be critical and can become ‘lesser’ fans but that does not make there positions wrong.
On the fair weather fans, indeed they can be spotted very easily. UK is full of em, we call em ‘jumping on the bandwagon’. They are more followers than anything else.
True fans do stick by their idols/teams come what may. But letting go ain’t a decision to be frowned upon. What happened to life goes on huh?
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Jay: agreed on most of your points here on the question of being a ‘fan’. I would say that there’s a difference in the Bachchan/Sachin analogy. If Sachin is regularly getting out for a duck or playing extremely poorly there is nothing in it for the Sachin fan. But even in a film like Aag there might be something for the Bachchan fan. A Bachchan performance that perhaps singles itself out even in the worst of films. Now I am not suggesting that Bachchan is good in every single film. Far from it. Just that this possibility exists which is not true for a sportsman. The better analogy is Sachin playing on the worst team in the world, the team never scoring more than 150-200 in a one day but Sachin getting half of those runs!
Otherwise I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. In fact I’ve said in the past and I’ll say it again here — for all those who are true fans of 70s or 80s Bachchan the current one must be rejected for the most part. This is not to say that he is still not head and shoulders over everyone else or that he is still a treat to watch in very many ways. Just that what he represented at his peak was such an extraordinary event that anything today seems poor. Most people love him in Sarkar. I actually like him less doing this sort of role as opposed to many others. Because he’s here closer to an older genealogy and the difference is that much more apparent. Just comparing Sarkar with Agneepath illustrates this let alone anything older. Or for that matter Sarkar with Khakee. So again my formula is ‘to be true to the Bachchan event reject the current one’! Watch what he offers but don’t be mistaken that this is the older Bachchan one once saw. Not because of a waning in capabilities necessarily but because of the ‘dulling’ of the event.
Now of course even this latter day Bachchan is enough to make the rest of his younger peers seem rather poor (and even pathetic in comparison). The seated elephant stands taller than the upright horse! In Hyderabadi ‘haathi baitha bhi to ghode se ooncha dikhta’!
Comment by rhapsody on 9 May 2008:
Talking of ‘fair weather fans’-fans of Chelsea and Manchester United are primary examples of this..
While the former jumped on the bandwagon after Abrahmovic took over,most Man Utd fans don’t have a clue about who O’Shea,Kuzsack and Fletcher are…
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
Satyam agree on the whole since you’ve been fair with choice of words.
‘But even in a film like Aag there might be something for the Bachchan fan.’
Agree and to add also there might ‘not’ be something in it for a Bachchan fan aswell! I was only after something like this on the matter!
‘The better analogy is Sachin playing on the worst team in the world, the team never scoring more than 150-200 in a one day but Sachin getting half of those runs!’
This has happened on a few occasions
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
‘Talking of ‘fair weather fans’-fans of Chelsea and Manchester United are primary examples of this..
While the former jumped on the bandwagon after Abrahmovic took over,most Man Utd fans don’t have a clue about who O’Shea,Kuzsack and Fletcher are…’
Agree so much LOL…and sorry to pick just these two sets of fans, but they absolutely personify fair weather fans. For these fans, it is ‘cool’ to go around saying they support them, when they don’t anything AT ALL about em. Not all fans, but there is a lot of em!
Comment by rks on 9 May 2008:
ILG: Jay gave a good reply.
Jay: It is a perspective. For you, sports is more important but for some, movies are more(or equally) important. And that is why they are called fans; and they would term a good movie by their star as cult movie, a passable movie as a good movie, In a bad movie, their star is the best part of the movie.
Q: You are talking about the movies (Sharaabi,Khuddar) in retrospect after they have been successful. But same can not be said about the Amitabh movies of recent times or post 85. For example You can say whatever about Mela, but it becomes little difficult to say anything against Fanaa because it was successful. But from critical point both were trashed.
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
rks absolutely and agree on your comment to Q
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Jay: Sachin’s done that half his life! There was particularly a tour of Aus in the 90s (Qalandar knows more about this) where Bradman after watching him felt that he was one of the greatest players. Sachin scored below his average on that tour but the rest of the team wasn’t contributing anything! But this tour confirmed Sachin’s greatness more for him than better tours against Aus.
Comment by Qalandar on 9 May 2008:
Actually I was speaking primarily in critical terms. the BO point came in to highlight how bad the films were.
Fanaa can in no way be compared with Khuddar. Fanaa was a big budget film, with technical values comparable to or better than most films made in Bollywood. It is definitely a triumph for Aamir Khan, unquestionably so (the riskiest Yashraj love story in years quite frankly), but it is equally unquestionable that it’s an A-grade film. With Khuddar and Yaarana, you cannot even say they are A-grade films barring Amitabh’s presence, if you look at technical quality, budgets, sets, etc. There’s a big BIG difference between films that would have been A-listers independent of Amitabh (e.g. Shaan, even Kaalia, Naseeb, etc.) and some of these other 1980s films, when Amitabhs success became so outsized that any old thing could be expected to work with him in it…
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
Satyam I saw the inaugaration of IPL and every captain being introduced. Sachin’s support is mindblowing, he just morphed all other captains in popularity. When this guy hangs up his boots, India will celebrate a great sportsman. And his appeal cuts across the globe and not just Indian cricket fans. I don’t know any cricketer who commands the kind of respect he does on such a huge level.
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
And the other way of making the same analogy is that I’d watch a rotten team with Sachin on it but not otherwise. The same goes for Bachchan and his films.
But it is quite true that one is not a greater fan necessarily for being willing to go through everything. I think it’s the ’stance’ that makes one a greater or lesser fan as opposed to simply the commitment. Or rather one could be a Bachchan zealot without being a Bachchan fan!
To expand on what I said earlier I think that even Bachchan fans are quite afraid to question anything Bachchan does for fear that the fans of other stars will opportunistically jump on such criticism or more importantly that they will be ‘betraying’ Bachchan by indulging in such.
In response to the first anyone who compares most of the stars since Bachchan to him is either aesthetically challenged and/or ethically challenged! In other words either ’stupid’ or ‘anxious’ (or a ‘liar’)! One can critique or criticize Bachchan but not from the position of privileging SRK or some of the others. This kind of ‘debate’ must be absolutely rejected.
As for the second well I think that one in fact ‘betrays’ Bachchan by treating him as a museum piece. One should regard his work as an enormous history. One should maintain ‘fidelity’ to the most radical gestures of this event. A whole set of moves, a language which eventually got co-opted or ‘normalized’ by the forces of consumption (this is the fate of every ‘revolution’!). This is what must be one’s guiding light where Bachchan is concerned. In other words one must always maintain a separation between Bachchan as he once was and Bachchan as he now is. The worst obfuscation in this sense is to treat his entire career as a continuum. It isn’t by any means. And this has nothing to do with questions of age and so forth.
Today (and this might be what RGV gets at far more provocatively) Abhishek represents fidelity to that event far more than Amitabh Bachchan. The charge of that signature is most potent with the son today, not the father. To not recognize that Yuva or Guru are ‘greater’ than anything bachchan is doing today (barring very rare exceptions) is to miss what Bachchan was once about.
In trying not to betray Bachchan by being true to him on a very literal level is one measure of a Bachchan fan but this move completely betrays his real legacy. Questions of acting (he of course ‘acts’ better than anyone else!) or the box office or what have you are really beside the point.
My own interest and admiration where Abhishek is concerned is not at all in the ‘biological’ (contra my fans who are in any case dishonest when they bring forth this charge) but to the Bachchan event. In a related way this is why Aamir interests me in many of his masala moments. He remains true to a masala legacy.
This is also why I have ‘opposed’ SRK for the longest time. Not because I particularly dislike him as an actor or anything. Leaving aside his ‘politics’ it is what his cinema represents that I detest. Not least because it is completely fake and inauthentic. In other words not even genuinely conservative (the conservatism here is at the core of the pretended progressivism but because the former is slipped in surreptitiously it ceases to be a genuine ‘offering’; were it genuine it would have been presented ‘on the table’ and not under it).
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Jay: Forget cricket, as I mentioned on the Bachchan blog today, and indeed have before, Sachin is the singular cultural presence in contemporary India after Bachchan or alongside him. There is simply no third. And of course internationally too we know how much he’s revered. Again a book deserves to be written on Sachin’s ‘meaning’ within an Indian context and including his link with the Indian ‘aspirational’ in a small town sense.
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Rks: I don’t believe Fanaa was “trashed” in the reviews, certainly not like Mela. At allbollywood.com Fanaa did 60% which is considered fairly good there. They don’t have numbers for Mela.
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
By the way here’s an older piece on Fanaa’s opening weekend:
http://www.allbollywood.com/index.cfm?page=printStory&id=17978
Comment by jayshah on 9 May 2008:
I think its difficult to even comprehend what Sachin has achieved and done for Indian cricket.
Comment by rks on 9 May 2008:
Satyam: Allbollywood gives a good average but if you look closely there are 13 good and 8 bad reviews. And in most of the ‘good’ cases reviewers liked performance by leads.
ps: Personally I found it average, in content very opposite of an Aamir’s movie.
Comment by rks on 9 May 2008:
Here is Fanaa’s collection for first four weeks from YashRaj Website.
Link
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
TheSkeptic: Trust me, all this rambling has a point! What I’m driving at is that Varma’s comments about Amitabh and Abhi are not as surprising(!) as you might think - he’s just more upfront and less-cowed by stars than the rest of us. Indeed you can already see that he seems to be more excited by Ash’s performance in SR than any of the others!
TheSkeptic: Another interesting fact is that Varma keeps saying Abhi is better than Amitabh, and he says this right in front of the Bachchans, in press conferences and so on. What does Amitabh make of this? Is he offended? It would appear not. It’s not deterring him or Varma from contemplating further films together. In one interview posted today, he earnestly hopes that Varma will launch his Time Machine as soon as possible!
9 May 08, 16:23
TheSkeptic: If what Varma says about performances is (hopefully) somewhat explicable in these terms, here’s the kicker: why has Varma done more films with Amitabh than he has with Abhi and Ash? Why does Amitabh state in a recent interview that he’s keen to do 20 more films with Varma, and so is Varma? So this is how I would inflect what Satyam considers Varma’s amibiguity regarding Amitabh. Like many of us, Varma grew up with Amitabh’s films, and equally like the rest of us, he knows that Amitabh today cannot really surprise. Also, like many of us, he thinks he knows how to recover that sense of surprise, and that is by pushing Amitabh into roles and situations that he’s never played, never been in. The difference is that Varma can act on his desires while we can only “criticise”.
TheSkeptic: One last thing I have to say, for now, on this topic is that in the latest Varma interview, where he asserts that Abhi is “more accomplished” than Amitabh, he actually qualifies that statement in a crucial way, which all those who were scandalized by it did not notice. Varma goes on to say that Abhi possesses insight (relational insight) into characters despite being a sheltered star-son whereas Amitabh obviously has seen several stations of life from struggler to megastar, was a common man himself once. Qualified thus, it’s a much less outrageous statement than people think.
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
Theskeptic: Has RGV really done more films with Bachchan as opposed to Abhishek? Let’s see he did both Sarkars with both. He did Nishabd and Aag with Bachchan, Naach with Abhishek. However he also had Abhishek in Aag but the latter pulled out. He also offered Bhoot and Company to Abhishek but the latter did neither. Time Machine again has both, if it actually gets made.
On the question of ambiguity I say this because I find there to be a fundamental ambivalence in terms of how RGV treats Bachchan and Abhishek. With the former there is a level at which RGV ‘acknowledges’ Bachchan by ‘reducing’ him. This either happens in a film like Sarkar where the succession is the real deal or something like Nishabd or Aag where in where different ways (and though I like the former) Bachchan is made ‘grotesque’ (I mean it this theoretically and not phsyically necessarily though the latter element is also evident). Abhishek functions as ‘good Bachchan’ for RGV while Bachchan himself functions as ‘bad Bachchan’. To psychoanalyze a bit I think there is some ‘hidden’ resentment that RGV has with respect to Bachchan.
You are right to highlight RGV’s point here. Also I think that Abhishek’s slowness is perhaps more to RGV’s taste. Remember he also said a few days ago that Abhishek was better in closeup than Bachchan. So while he’s making outrageous (or seemingly outrageous ones, I don’t find them outrageous as I earlier explained, I don’t think RGV would disagree very much with my reading of both Bachchans) statements they’re all in one direction. conversely he’s found Ash very surprising but he hasn’t said anything specific about her.
Comment by akshay shah on 9 May 2008:
Stunning set of thoughts from Skeptic here…..NISHABD is a prime example of a role that NO other actor in indian cinema can pull off, the performance has no reference point, yes we have seen older men fall for younger girls…but NOT a girl in her teenage years fall for a 60 year-old man!!! Varma pushes the envelope with Bachchan….and offer Bachchan at this age the types of role that he hasn’t played before. As an actor Amitabh Bachchan has covered EVERY SINGLE type of character and performance that other actors only dream of playing in their career, and whether people like it or not the Bachchan Phenmenon is still going at 66….
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
On another note Bhootnath is much better in the Fri evening shows but Fri was overall poor. Sat is much better as is Sun. One hopes than Sun is even better than Sat as WOM spreads. A friend of mine saw it and loved Bachchan here, liked the film a lot too. Said they spoiled things in the last 5 mins though.
Comment by akshay shah on 9 May 2008:
A friend of mine saw it last night, didn’t like the movie, but said Bachchan is superb here…
Comment by satyam on 9 May 2008:
I should also say that to the extent that RGV qualifies his comparison it’s still a bit of a non sequitur. So Abhishek might have that insight despite his background but does it really suggest necessarily a more accomplished performer? Unless it is that this insight is evident because his performances are that good? But this involves another problem. Because the converse of this then is that Amitabh Bachchan who presumably acquired the very same insights more ‘naturally’ than did Abhishek, or at least not despite his background, is not as accomplished a performer. So either he didn’t acquire the same insight which makes RGV’s statement comprehensible (that Abhishek is more accomplished). Or else he did in less creditable ways but which nevertheless led to great performances. But then the original formulation fails.
But the more important question is this: why does RGV always frame the question in a way that privileges Abhishek? I’ve not been arguing ‘against’ RGV. I just think that in a nutshell RGV ‘prefers’ Abhishek at this point and is really hunting for the language with which to formulate this. Not because he has to provide explanations to the media (he’s the one who voices such opinions in the first place) but rather because he’s trying to understand ‘why’ for himself.
Also I do not think that RGV is somehow trying to wrest the actor out of the megastar when it comes to Bachchan. The proof of this is again Abhishek! When he gets Abhishek he has him do the Bachchanesque thing most obviously in Sarkar (the character in Company wouldn’t have been too far off either). So when he gets the ‘actor’ he has him play the ‘megastar’ or attempts to make him larger than life. In fact the whole Sarkar franchise is about establishing absolute symmetry between father and son.
As you (theskeptic) have suggested the problem then is that Bachchan doesn’t surprise RGV and therefore he has to invent scripts as radical as Nishabd for him. Having said that there is perhaps something about this ‘consumer Bachchan’ who offends him which is why he is also involved in a ‘defacement’ effort with respect to the star.
Comment by nithi_s on 10 May 2008:
Just came across the term ‘Celebrity Worshipping Syndrome’. Some body really needs treatment.
Comment by satyam on 10 May 2008:
Nithi_s: how about the ‘illiterate but don’t know it’ syndrome? Look this up..
Comment by satyam on 10 May 2008:
To add to what I said here yesterday I think RGV is also guilty (assuming that he is disappointed with a later Bachchan) of trying to get to the ‘real’ of the megastar. In other words the idea that there is Bachchan that can somehow be retrieved if one pushes him enough in the Nishabd sort of film. I would argue that such an attempt is always a mistake. One has to always account for the signature. You cannot in any sense go ‘before’ the signature came about. So the only way to ‘trigger’ that earlier Bachchan archive is to work with Abhishek (which RGV is doing) or to make movies in the ‘angry young man’ geneaology. Of course the interesting thing here is that Bachchan is actually called ‘Vijay’ in Nishabd! I think he negotiates the tension well in this film but this is still closer to the Main Azaad Hoon moment where the director at some level wants Bachchan the actor and not as much the superstar. RGV ‘exaggerates’ time’s toll on Bachchan’s ‘face’ while Main Azaad Hoon tried to make him ‘defenseless’ (and Bachchan summoned up a certain body language for this). Of the two Nishabd is the more successful attempt and yet the tension denies the film total success. Bhansali on the other hand completely embraced the signature in Black and never really had a problem.
In Aag I think RGV actually had the right idea by making bachchan Gabbar and having Abhishek as Veeru. Not sure how he would have handled the rest of the cast or what his choices would have been even but the semiotics of such a film would have been interesting.
Comment by akshay shah on 10 May 2008:
” ‘illiterate but don’t know it’ syndrome”-LOL!