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Every critic is biased. But the official critics from the film industry are biased according to the power politics & “Who’s who?” of the industry. The unofficial amatuer critics as we can call ourselves are here to present our unbiased theory about films and filmstars. Yes, we have our own preferences and prejudices. And this makes each one of us unique. So, thus site is to express these differences and gain knowledge.
What do we do with the knowledge gained? I dunno. But its great to read the writings of an intellectual genius who persuasively presents arguments that there could be creative shallowness behind well conceived scripts like “Chak De India”. All you see in other movie forums are knowledge deficiency and fanatic obsession on celebrities. These cannot satisfy our needs of critical analysis. Which is why this site works.
But today I was shocked to see huge pics of a female clad in lingerie. To top it all, Open (labelled as Progressive) comments about personal sexual preferences. This site as far as I understand is not meant to undertake any kind of discussion on X rated topics.
The blame can be put against the retarted Indian mentality for matters Indians are trained to think as “Private and taboo”. Appears as if only Indian women are still conservative about these topics. This is a request on behalf of all such female members of this site …
We are here to discuss movies and unavoidably about Stars. Guys have the freedom to send links to each other and keep their discussion in private chats and personal mailboxes. Please don’t let the standard of this site stoop to the levels of a Porn site.
There Are 401 Responses So Far. »
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flora 19 October 2007
12:14:12 am
i agree and i am a boy/guy.I am just annoyed by all those pop ups ads that i just skipped the article.
flora 19 October 2007
12:16:57 am
but chalta hai
Sunny 19 October 2007
12:19:47 am
I agree Nithya…and I wasn’t very impressed by many of the comments in that thread too. Not that it’s wrong, lewd talk is fine by me..I do it too
…but this ain’t the place for it. Kudos to you for being so upfront about this.
flora 19 October 2007
12:23:04 am
good point,will get many comments for this.
nithi_s 19 October 2007
12:30:19 am
Sunny,
Good that we agree once again.
I don’t think some guys can stop making lewd or sexist remarks here in there. But atleast they should aviod direct posts like that one.
Sunny 19 October 2007
12:42:47 am
flora–guy!? Change it to fauna right away
sandy 19 October 2007
12:46:47 am
Though I do not exactly have very delicate sensibilities when it comes to these matters, I have to agree with Nithya and Sunny here that some of these some posts are getting increasingly vulgar and cheap.
By all means, let’s have a dash of Rajen’s sexual innuendoes to spice up things on the forum but to have an entire post, dissecting a woman’s body parts is a bit tasteless if you ask me. I’m no one to take a moral stand here and wouldn’t, but just feel NG is not the right place for it. But as I said, those clever innuendoes can continue. I love them!
rks 19 October 2007
12:49:01 am
Nice to have this subject in discussion.
Personally I don’t like posting those snaps but I don’t find anything wrong when someone posts them.
But I sure don’t like the discussion which follows the post.
akshay shah 19 October 2007
12:59:42 am
Personally the post itself was “filmi” related, and I didn’t have any problems with it myself at all what so ever ! In the past we’ve had MAXIM photos of Amisha, Kareena and Mallika Khan posted on NG and again I didn’t find anything wrong in those either…Amisha Patel’s MAXIM photos has had 25, 818 views and ranks as the third most viewed post on Naachgaana..speaks for itself.
There is a thin line between a magazine like MAXIM, FHM, RALPH, ZOO, and many others and a “porn” one as such.
I do admit some of the comments in the discussion that followed weren’t suitable, though in this instance they were there to evoke humor and nothing more.
A.Shah
Sunny 19 October 2007
01:18:20 am
rks/akshay–yeah, I absolutely agree..nothing wrong if hamein apni aankhen sekne ko mil jaaye
but some comments were clearly inappropriate. I mean words like ‘r**di’..’l**d’ etc just doesn’t put us in a very good light. I personally know many people who visit NG almost everyday and have very high regards for the writing of almost everybody here. I wouldn’t want them to start comparing NG with some other Filmy forums out there which have members throwing MCs BCs at each other and talking about the ‘g**nd’ or ‘c***t’ of certain actors or actresses. Again, it’s not a moral stand..as I said earlier, I’m all for lewd talk,in fact I was ragged into making and composing a porn song on my female batchmates by my seniors during my MBA days..you’ll be shocked!!! to hear it 
…but this ain’t the place. That’s all Nithya was trying to say I guess.
akshay shah 19 October 2007
01:37:48 am
Like I said above Sunnybhai , I do agree that the comments that followed weren’t suitable, though certainly hilarious, but that should indeed be toned down and the language used perhaps toned down a little.
However I don’t have a problem at all with the pictures posted nor do I consider them offensive or rude, ofcourse this is a biased opinion of a “guy” but still, this is FAR from porn, it’s photo’s from a Men’s magazine of a Bollywood actress…..no different from the Amisha, Kareena Maxim pics IMO Bhai:-)
sandy 19 October 2007
01:39:29 am
The more I read of Sunny, the more I get impressed!
sandy 19 October 2007
01:41:44 am
” I mean words like ‘r**di’..’l**d’ etc just doesn’t put us in a very good light. I personally know many people who visit NG almost everyday and have very high regards for the writing of almost everybody here. I wouldn’t want them to start comparing NG with some other Filmy forums out there which have members throwing MCs BCs at each other and talking about the ‘g**nd’ or ‘c***t’ of certain actors or actresses.”
Wholeheartedly agree!
rks 19 October 2007
01:44:33 am
Sunny: I am envious of you
Sunny 19 October 2007
01:51:57 am
Akshay–bhai, I have not made a single statement against the posting of those pics..I quite liked them ..as any man would(yeah, I do like to believe I’m one). And of course, this is not PORN..I have seen more than my fair share(or anyone’s share for that matter) of that to believe this is porn
. Aap bewajah hi mere pe gussa ho rahe ho 
Sandhya–after thinking for about 88 seconds I still couldn’t find anything to reply
. So..I must request you not to do this again..I’m easily embarrased, and I’m terrible at handling praise..moreso..when it comes from one of the fairer lot.
Sunny 19 October 2007
01:53:28 am
rks–Jiju getting envious of his Saala, now that’s a first
sandy 19 October 2007
01:55:32 am
“..moreso..when it comes from one of the fairer lot.”
I’m confused now. Do you mean from the fairer sex or a fairer person? lol
nithi_s 19 October 2007
02:10:47 am
Akshay Shah,
I suggest posting links of MAXIM postures rather than actually pasting them in the site. Those who do not find it objectionable can visit it.
In this case, the comments were not to evoke to humour. I was some kind of explicit expression of each other’s sexist comment on what this womens seemed to have said.
I do not see any fun in such talks particularly when something about a female is involved.
And I find the kind of words men use to curse each other rather strange. Its mostly related to gayness and matters like that. Surely, you guys must find better ways to attack each other.
Sunny 19 October 2007
02:14:58 am
Sandhya–fairer, and might I add better, in every way actually…except for Math
Sunny 19 October 2007
02:18:53 am
Nithya seems to be in a male bashing mood today…run for cover guys!
nithi_s 19 October 2007
02:26:38 am
Sorry about that Sunny! But, I have to say. Remember, that fight between SP and Akshay Shah in some post .. . I think it was about Ranbir and Gayness … weird topic and weider discussion.
akshay shah 19 October 2007
02:42:16 am
Sunny: Gussa? Lol far from it..it’s a long weekend over here..even if someone tried their best they couldn’t get me angry this weekend:-)
I’m not gussa at all, perhaps I did misunderstand you initially, but you’ve explained yourself perfectly clearly now:-)
“I have seen more than my fair share”–Lol!!! Ab kya bolu aap se..aap to guru nikle!:P
Nithi: Another way would be to have it clearly written in the title MAXIM PICTURES, and then have the actual pictures pasted WITHIN the post itself. That way people who do not want to see the pics simply don’t click on it as they won’t appear until you’re in the post:-)
As for the comments in the post, I do agree that some of them may come across as quiet offensive, however knowing what Jason Todd is like I can assure you it was nothing more than a bit of “silly male bonding”. And I do agree with ya..us guys are pretty weird at times:-)
A.Shah
jayshah 19 October 2007
02:43:12 am
‘I suggest posting links of MAXIM postures rather than actually pasting them in the site. Those who do not find it objectionable can visit it.’
Fair point….
Rajen you maybe out of a job soon.
There is of course a fine line, but also that fine line depends on individual sensibilities. For example Sherlyn Chopra’s comments actually were very enlightening for me, not in a pervy sense but she was very outspoken – more so than I’d ever have thought. Its not exactly the best place to have full blown pages with actresses flaunting and a link is a better solution. But IMO the interview, though quite graphic, is enlightening. For me, she breaks a stereotypical notion I have definitely grown up on that from my interaction with indian females this kind of talk is a very uncomfortable discussion/situation whereas she is quite open about a few things. The stuff she is saying is stuff I’ve heard from loads of non indian women but never an indian woman. Anyway just my experience, hence the surprise at the interview !
I am glad we have more females on NG now, the men can be put in their place now !
akshay shah 19 October 2007
02:44:26 am
And the “F” word from Streets mouth is expected, he has a limited vocabulary which starts and finishes with the “F” word:-) And I must add, in this case Sherlyn Chopra’s interview itself is more “offensive” than anything commented on my NGer’s!:-)
A.Shah
Sunny 19 October 2007
02:46:01 am
” And I do agree with ya..us guys are pretty weird at times:-)”..LOL..yeah we are.
akshay shah 19 October 2007
02:46:15 am
Jay: I agree, I actually found her interview quiet fascinating, pervertness aside! She’s no doubt very outspoken and I see exactly where you’re coming from when you say “The stuff she is saying is stuff I’ve heard from loads of non indian women but never an indian woman”.
A.Shah
akshay shah 19 October 2007
02:47:10 am
I just finished reading all the comments, and even as I read them I can’t help but laugh at some of Som’s comments on Sherlyn’s quotes!
FloydRulez 19 October 2007
02:47:41 am
Disclaimar: My honest take at this. I apologize in advance if it makes people uncomfortable in any sense..
Using a ‘*’ isn’t going to change things, like say a “b*t*h” – but it somehow appears to be less ‘derogatory’, Isn’t it? I think we misuse this effect to a great deal. If one has to dissect some films, especially if it comes to ‘exploitation’ films, for example, let’s say “Grindhouse” and its metaphors. One had to refer to different implications in the film. One can’t help it. Isn’t this a place for matured cinephiles? However, referring someone (especially a star) with expletives could be done away with. Better if we moderate ‘em, and maintain the decorum and public forum etiquettes. Because that would only be judgmental and in bad taste. It qualifies as mudslinging and a personal abuse. But using such terms doesn’t make someone ‘lewd’, because the terms themselves are ’social contruct’. While one suggests that it’s sexist if we speak of a woman in the bad light(terms like ‘hussies’, ‘tart’, ‘whore’, etc), while a man regarded a ‘womanizer’ is not as derogatory. This is sexist. Blame the MCP structure, and we are inherently driven to believe ’sexual orientation’ is the morality test. That’s BS. Words like ‘bastard’, have always been regarded as ’sexist’ because the woman is put to the ultimate test yet again. I’m strongly against this, but at times, there is a need to define a character (like say, Depardieu in “1900″). A matured cinephile shouldn’t sound ’sexist’ while using such terms – that is agreed. However, if someone had to use that on me, it wouldn’t be a negative remark in my book. Even if a person’s sexual orientation is to be questioned, it doesn’t take away anything. BUT, If that was to be ridiculed, it’s definitely prejudiced and slanted.
Next up – Using a general term like ‘fuck’ is balanced. While p*ss*/c*nt/tw*t vs c*ck/d*ck/d*ng – but these are used in ‘vulgar’ sense (‘vagina’ and ‘phallus’ are not vulgar), and quite rightly objected here. But there are many mainstream films which often have implications and are quite transparent with a need for the discourse on the same, and more to do with ’sexual inclination’ as such. Should we do away with such discussions as they are pornographic? I personally don’t find this to be not ’sexist’ and no, this is not offending in any way.
FloydRulez 19 October 2007
02:55:42 am
Playing a devil’s advocate again, If someone types ‘respectably’ here could be sexist, homophobic, or a chauvinist for all we know. Better not to get judgmental if someone looses their cool and hits back by instinct. In any case, the ‘individual’ and ‘individuality’ doesn’t exist. It’s a social construct, and I wouldn’t get judmental on the person, but deconstruct/dissect the ’setup’ on which he lives in. For example, it’s pretty cool to sound ‘homophobic’, and it’s a yuppie rule to sound ‘hip’. This hippie belief is quenched if one uses swearwords and prejudiced terms. So, there is no ‘You’ or ‘yourself’ here. You just put on a cloak at different places. My two paisa..
akshay shah 19 October 2007
02:57:32 am
Floyd, been reading your posts over the last few weeks..and you make a lot of sense!
nithi_s 19 October 2007
02:57:53 am
A.Shah..
Just one point I need to make … The first pic of Sherlyn is clearly visible even without clicking on it and the size is big.
So, do you intend to say that people who don’t like such posts should not try reading whats in it? Anyway my intention is to request everyone have some control of the topics discussed and words used!
About SP, if you know so much abt him, why do you get offended from what he says! The idea is to be keep unnecessary name calling away. A healthier discussion shouldn’t get personal.
Even, I have got upset with a certain member calling me fanatic. But, re-attacking with equally offending words is one thing that I do not want to do. Sorry about sounding like a moral sciene teacher.
akshay shah 19 October 2007
03:15:26 am
Nithi: But there is a way the pics can be posted so they don’t show on the main body of the page.
Agree on control of words used:-)
In regards to SP, he doesn’t offend me as much anymore, I do feel sorry for the guy..:-)
Nothing wrong with being a moral science teacher:-)
A.Shah
Sunny 19 October 2007
03:22:19 am
Akshay–No one should have the problem with the ‘F’ word, coz more often than not, the word is used in a sense which is totally disconnected from it’s literal meaning. And I don’t think anyone is still getting the point Nithya was trying to make…I can go ahead and call you a dickhead right now for not calling CDI a classic
, followed by a smiley of course..but I highly doubt that can be called an insult. Someone can go ahead and call kareena a whore(that is r**di in Hindi) for ditching Shahid, that would still be okay. In fact, each and every comment in that thread is perfectly ok, as long as it’s not open to public ..but we do have some female members here, and it’s only considerate if we refrain from using ‘r**di’, ‘l**d’ or anything explicit or demeaning to women or even a particular woman in general. And now that Nithya has in fact voiced her opinions about this, it really makes sense to do away with it. As I said, it’s not a moral stand on anybody’s part, least of all mine 
..it’s respect for a fellow member, who happens to be a lady.
FloydRulez–Some strong points there
..I agree. This debate, however, was more to do with what I have said above….not about right or wrong, or inconsistent standards for men and women, or morality stands and least of all pornografitti!
akshay shah 19 October 2007
03:28:39 am
Sunny: I don’t have a problem with the “F” word at all what so ever, I used it quiet often in posts “FUCKING COOL”, however I don’t like the words intended TOWARDS me i.e YOU’RE A FUCKING IDIOT:-).
But agree that some words shouldn’t be used on a public forum!
A.SHah
Ravi 19 October 2007
03:32:29 am
Sunny “Sandhya–fairer, and might I add better, in every way actually…except for Math”
Actually Sunny not the case any more, now on the average girls are better than guys in Math too, so it would suffice to say that majority(a huge majority) of the Girls are better and definitely lot more nicer persons than us weird guys.
The above is not a sarcastic or tongue in cheek statement, this is something that I strongly believe in.
sandy 19 October 2007
03:35:28 am
Jay: In all fairness, I don’t mind having this sort of interview once in a while. It does offer a perspective on female sexuality, and brings out lesser known facets, clearly because, as you say, not many women talk about it — though their ‘needs’ may not exactly be different from Sherlyn Chopra’s.
And there is some credence to what FloydRulez says, in the sense that a lot of times, women can end up being far more ’sexist’ in terms of labeling the likes of Shelyn, who choose to be explicit about their sexual preferences and are assertive in their physical demands.
I think that particular post and the ensuing threads had all sorts of comments and I would particularly laud SP there for standing by a woman’s prerogative to gratify herself physically, much like how a man would wish it to be.
The problem for me arises when a lot of men (and even women) tend to deliberately or through conditioning read the presence of a robust sexual appetite in a woman as ‘sluttish’ and ‘inappropriate’. If a man makes physical overtures, it’s natural and he’s merely responding to his throbbing hormones but if a woman expresses her physical desires, it is most often than not, read as desperation.
I think, my objection to some of the comments here, emerge from this deeply chauvanistic attitude that a several people carry with them.
Sunny 19 October 2007
03:35:38 am
Akshay–I know you don’t have a problem with that word. I was agreeing with you there, and I just added some of my points. I think there’s some problem with my writing, almost always it comes accross as if I was countering you, when in fact I was agreeing
Ravi 19 October 2007
03:37:25 am
On this topic what Nithya says makes a lot of sense when you look at it from a girl’s perspective because if my wife read this the first thing she would say is you guys are sick and what do you gain by talking like this, I try to tell her that this comments are in jest and that is the way guys talk, but she never gets convinced so I can understand where Nithya is coming from.
Personally, I don’t mind most of the comments and I am guilty of sometimes talking like that, but what to do guys are guys and sometimes we go overboard having fun.
Ravi 19 October 2007
03:38:49 am
Well said Sandhya agree completely with what you just said.
Sunny 19 October 2007
03:41:43 am
Ravi–I’ll politely disagree with you on Math
…actually Math is not the right word..what I meant was any sort of Analytics in general. Sandy/Nithya, please don’t kill me for this. ON all other counts, yeah, they beat us hands down! no questions asked. Strength(not physical power like men, but the ability to deal with pain,stress,tension in a much better way than men), loyalty, compassion, almost everything else.On Analytics, I still stand by my view 
..that’s not to say all women are bad at it, but on an average men are better.
akshay shah 19 October 2007
03:42:01 am
Well said Ravibhai!
Sunny 19 October 2007
03:43:22 am
“Personally, I don’t mind most of the comments and I am guilty of sometimes talking like that, but what to do guys are guys and sometimes we go overboard having fun.”
Very well said Ravi, and it holds true for all of us.
som 19 October 2007
03:45:21 am
first let me tell you, that i did not find anything offensive in that Maxim’s post.i liked the way Sherlyn went about the whole interview.we rarely come across such females in india we are outspoken and dont hesitate to reveal their sexual preferences.she was very honest and made it very clear what she expects from her male counterparts to be.
jayshah 19 October 2007
03:47:37 am
‘I can go ahead and call you a dickhead right now for not calling CDI a classic , followed by a smiley of course..but I highly doubt that can be called an insult’
Disagree. Might not be an insult, but it is definitely a road block to a discussion. The smiley is just there as a coverup IMO, why say ‘dickhead’ and follow with a smiley – is that double meaning? Also calling out someone like this is just plain wrong. For example, I am a Bobby basher and if I knew a Bobby fan, I’d not call him a dickhead for liking him, only I would like to know what it is s/he actually sees in him ! i.e. I cannot understand some peoples’ tastes BUT that doesn’t mean I’d start to downgrade them as people by insulting there choices ! Key word here is respecting an opinion.
‘The problem for me arises when a lot of men (and even women) tend to deliberately or through conditioning read the presence of a robust sexual appetite in a woman as ‘sluttish’ and ‘inappropriate’. If a man makes physical overtures, it’s natural and he’s merely responding to his throbbing hormones but if a woman expresses her physical desires, it is most often than not, read as desperation.
I think, my objection to some of the comments here, emerge from this deeply chauvanistic attitude that a several people carry with them.’
Sandy…I find it enlightening when a woman speaks out like Sherlyn. Nothing to do with desperation…but the point you address is a social one that is apparant in all societies.
If a man went into a club and hit on 20 women and got there numbers he’d be lauded by blokes ! If a female done the same, more often then not, she is considered ’sluttish’. But that is how society is currently setup ! And it really stems from the fact that there are very few Sherlyn type women who are crystal clear about there likes and dislikes and can go public on it !
Anyway – without meaning offense, if Sherlyn’s interview was actually given by a western person, someone like a friend I know in London, it would be more readibly ‘appropriate’. Because she is indian, it changes the dynamics of her comments. Shilpa when she was in big brother dodged all q’s relating to sex whereas local westerners were all openly discussing about it. Part of this dsagreement is related to culture and being someone who has grown up a traditional environment at home but having all my education in a western society I too have lived a double life of sorts. There are some things which I just cannot openly talk about at home or with cousins but can do with friends.
Sunny 19 October 2007
03:53:46 am
som–I don’t think anyone here said they found Sherlyn’s interview offensive.
sandy 19 October 2007
03:56:07 am
Jay: My objection is not at Sherlyn’s interview at all, though I do understand a lot of women may not be comfortable reading it..
Personally, I have no issues here. My beef is about some of the comments made there..and there’s no excuse about that.
som 19 October 2007
03:59:28 am
sunny: i suppose Nithya did not like that post about Sherlyn(the maxim pictures) and the comments followed after that.i guess she must have been offended by some of the comments we guys have made in that thread which might have forced her to post this write up.
Sunny 19 October 2007
04:01:11 am
Jayshah–That was an example first of all..I was not calling Akshay a dickhead there. It’s something like you meet a friend, give him tight pat on his back..and say kyun be ch***ye kya haal hai. I was just explaining a situation where words don’t actually mean what they’re supposed to.
Anyway, I don’t know why this is happening, as it happens in a lot of discussions. A simple thing like a fellow member asking for a little consideration and the others digging deep to find loopholes and arguments, discussion on ideological as well as philosohical standpoints, or plainly going off topic for God knows what. Everyone is free to post whatever he/she likes, as I’ve said in this thread repeatedly!, it’s not a sermon on morality, and neither is anyone judging anyone else here. The whole point is a little consideration for other’s views/feelings.
jayshah 19 October 2007
04:01:29 am
Anyway…I am the least bit qualified for a discussion on how men and women behave. I don’t understand women at all ! They drive me nuts ! Most of them do anyway. Especially the one’s I liked, they always drove me to do some really stupid things ! I have a bunch of emails and birthday cards and xmas cards I regret writing !
Sandy I understand. Can only say alot of that is just ‘boys being boys’ but maybe should tone down for NG’s good…
Sunny 19 October 2007
04:06:12 am
som–yes Som, that’s exactly what had happened.
sandy 19 October 2007
04:08:26 am
To be honest, I have found NG to be one of the most open, liberal , progressive, pro-women forums. And it’s a largely underrated asset, we must be proud of.
Wouldn’t like the equilibrium to alter, that’s all..
akshay shah 19 October 2007
04:09:53 am
Jay : “! I have a bunch of emails and birthday cards and xmas cards I regret writing “—Lol! I know exactly what you mean…the embarrassing things we do;)!
Agree on toning it down..
A.Shah
som 19 October 2007
04:10:51 am
“Personally, I have no issues here. My beef is about some of the comments made there..and there’s no excuse about that.”
yes i do agree and i also held myself responsible for making such comments which i suppose should not have been done in this public forum.we guys as Ravi bhai rightly said go overboard sometimes when it comes to such kinda discussions.if atall the female members have been offended by those comments,i am extremely sorry for that and will see that i dont post such comments in the future.
nithi_s 19 October 2007
04:11:34 am
Thanks Ravi for seeing what I wrote in a girl’s POV.
On a different note, I am travelling to hometown this weekend. Can’t come online for a couple of days. Will surely miss the discussions in NG. Will get back only on Monday.
jayshah 19 October 2007
04:12:05 am
Yes Sandy. I think we are seeking perfection on these matters ! The standard is aready very high, but we are after Bradmanesque perfection !
sandy 19 October 2007
04:12:34 am
Also, in a certain refreshing way, I find it curious that the likes of Sherlyn, are replicating male chauvinism and sexist stereotypes about women in their embrace of “raunch culture” and traditionally masculine attributes.
Sunny 19 October 2007
04:12:42 am
som–take a bow
bravo! pal.
sandy 19 October 2007
04:14:47 am
Re “if at all the female members have been offended by those comments,i am extremely sorry for that and will see that i dont post such comments in the future.”
Yaar Som, don’t make me look like a WCS –women chauvinist sow!
akshay shah 19 October 2007
04:16:35 am
I guess that means no more “PICK YOUR HOTTIE” competition Jay:P..though I know you always wanted Rakhi Bahen:D
A.Shah
akshay shah 19 October 2007
04:18:15 am
Though I started that post with an apology to begin with, and even promised topless pictures of Salman Khan and Hrithik Roshan handpicked by my sister upfront:)!
Sunny 19 October 2007
04:18:42 am
Sandy–sow!…LMAO…he he..amazing
som 19 October 2007
04:21:03 am
“Yaar Som, don’t make me look like a WCS –women chauvinist sow!”
no notatall sandy.i now feel guilty of making that last comment in that thread which i really believe was not proper and suitable for this public platform like NG.it was something i guess went liitle far.
Ravi 19 October 2007
04:21:29 am
Agree Jay and Akshay, girls unfortunately have the power to make us do lot of things which normally we would not do.
I used to always think that man I cannot understand the girls, but after spending the last 14 years with my wife and 10 years with my little girl, I have a better perspective of the fairer sex, they are lot more nicer , more sensible and more caring than we guys can ever be.
My wife talks to her sister everyday( I keep asking her what was so new everyday to talk about) and I speak like once a month with my brother and that too after the first minute I start asking “what else”.
But, one thing is for sure guys tend to have majority of the fun before marriage(it is changing now) and definitely after marriage.
jayshah 19 October 2007
04:21:58 am
Well certainly you have a club of actresses who are capable of making such an interview and some that are not. Can you imagine someone like Rani giving an interview like that ? It’d be all over tv and she would be casgated ! Her image would be killed. Actors/actresses by in large give interviews in line with what their image is. Sherlyn probably represents a sexbomb type image who is very open to such publicity. Also she is unknown and not so popular, so giving such an ‘out there’ interview gives her some fame for a few mins.
som 19 October 2007
04:23:14 am
“I guess that means no more “PICK YOUR HOTTIE” competition”
Akshay: yes i also think so.we have to restrict those things to emails only.
Ravi 19 October 2007
04:24:10 am
Som, you cannot be perfect bud, you just showed that you are human by making those comments, but you are a nice guy with a level head and nothing you say is over board at all.
Sunny 19 October 2007
04:27:08 am
“My wife talks to her sister everyday( I keep asking her what was so new everyday to talk about) and I speak like once a month with my brother and that too after the first minute I start asking “what else”.
Man!! I’ve been married for only a year, and I’m already going crazy with the phone conversations. Seriously..Sandy/Nithya…what do you guys talk about???
Ravi 19 October 2007
04:27:57 am
“I guess that means no more “PICK YOUR HOTTIE” competition”
What we are not going to have that? Have a decent dressed hottie competition.
akshay shah 19 October 2007
04:31:38 am
Ravi: Well worded,and on the latter..sure why not, I might do a Pick Your Hottie in Desi Attire;)!
Women and phones will always remain a mystery much like why women always go to the bathroom in pairs..
A.Shah
som 19 October 2007
04:32:32 am
“you cannot be perfect bud, you just showed that you are human by making those comments”
Ravi Bhai:yeah that was quite natural on my part to make such comments but i did forget that there are some female members here at NG who may get offended.its just not here at NG ,even some of my female frens have problem when we guys talk something liitle weird relating to sex and similar stuffs.
sandy 19 October 2007
04:32:32 am
Not undermining the likes of Sherlyn, but I find it so much more exciting to make love to a man’s brain than his body. hehe
Again, it could be a case of ignorance being bliss!
Sunny 19 October 2007
04:45:54 am
“much like why women always go to the bathroom in pairs..”lol…I’ve been told about some of them…but not gonna disclose ‘em here..he he
Sandy–don’t get your hopes high given the widespread belief in the adage that a man carries his brain in his ……
, but then maybe you’re on the right track …lol.
FloydRulez 19 October 2007
04:49:53 am
“And there is some credence to what FloydRulez says, in the sense that a lot of times, women can end up being far more ’sexist’ in terms of labeling the likes of Shelyn, who choose to be explicit about their sexual preferences and are assertive in their physical demands.
I think that particular post and the ensuing threads had all sorts of comments and I would particularly laud SP there for standing by a woman’s prerogative to gratify herself physically, much like how a man would wish it to be.
The problem for me arises when a lot of men (and even women) tend to deliberately or through conditioning read the presence of a robust sexual appetite in a woman as ‘sluttish’ and ‘inappropriate’. If a man makes physical overtures, it’s natural and he’s merely responding to his throbbing hormones but if a woman expresses her physical desires, it is most often than not, read as desperation.”
- Absolutely Sandy. As I said, it’s a social construct over generations. From prehistoric civilization to modern day religious inclinations plays a part here. It runs subconsiously that Women are inclined to think of ‘gratification’ as a despicable act (and women themselves are retrograde for the bad) as against men who have their hormonal instincts to blame. It’s a case of inhibition. The morality of ‘desperation’ is the probably the most complicated of the lot. Better to dissect the scenario and hence be more objective than relegate to subjectivity. The deconstruction (deciphering how progressive/regressive is a part of which) is an interesting course of study in itself.
jayshah 19 October 2007
04:50:48 am
‘they are lot more nicer , more sensible and more caring than we guys can ever be.
My wife talks to her sister everyday( I keep asking her what was so new everyday to talk about) and I speak like once a month with my brother and that too after the first minute I start asking “what else”.’
DISAGREE. No way in hell is a girl ever going to be more nicer, sensible or caring then me ! No way hose ! In fact I can safely say I am all these more than most the girls I know LOL !
On the second comment, would put that down to women’s propensity to gossip and talk is a lot more than a mans ! And doesn’t mean one care’s any less or more ! Plus what do they talk about ? My mum does this and in all honesty she spends one hour discussing something that can be said in two mins ! Lack of efficiency in my book !
Sunny 19 October 2007
04:58:01 am
jayshah–all fair points and valid arguments too….lol…my beliefs are shaken now
FloydRulez 19 October 2007
05:00:22 am
Of course, not to sound too freudian or senile yet again. I find this excerise of deconstruction be more constructive. This applies to films from “Aval appidi thaan” to “Jules et Jim”, Mahesh bhatt to KB. We could discuss about ‘em and the digressive non-NG material changes into a more relevant film-related discourse.
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:04:38 am
Actually even I don’t agree completely with the ‘caring’ part. Yes, they are infinitely more caring than men when it comes to their parents, siblings,close friends,children, close relatives, but on a broader picture I feel men indulge in general acts of goodness and kindness far more than women do. I for one, have never ever seen helping someone cross the road, or helping someone change their flat tyre, or offer to carry a senior citizen’s luggage etc. What I mean to say is, if a man is actually as caring as he should NOT be(according to conventional wisdom) then there are chances that he’ll be far more caring on a general level than most caring women. The intensity with which women care for their loved ones though…is something which men can never! match.
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:06:09 am
**seen them**
akshay shah 19 October 2007
05:07:35 am
Whoa, some superb points there Sunny! “What I mean to say is, if a man is actually as caring as he should NOT be(according to conventional wisdom) then there are chances that he’ll be far more caring on a general level than most caring women”
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:10:27 am
Thanks Akki bhai
Elvis 19 October 2007
05:12:55 am
Hmmm.Interesting discussion and fair points.
nithi_s 19 October 2007
05:14:20 am
jayshah,
Your last comment proves that you certainly don’t understand women!
Being emotional, sensitive and moody got something to do with Estrogen. Men might be sensitive too but the female sensitivity lies in a different sphere. Yes, at the end of the day females are a probablity a little more selfish and want security more than anything else.
But yes, women do have a tendency to gossip. However, there can be garrulous men too. Thats got nothing to do with inefficieny but its just a character trait.
Ravi 19 October 2007
05:17:05 am
Good points Sunny, but I did not mean that guys are not caring at all, I was just saying that girls are lot more that’s all.
For all the examples that you gave me unfortunately in my case if I an my wife were walking and we saw something like that, my wife would react and help that person or ask me to help the person even before the thought crosses my mind.
You wait Sunny till you are married for a little longer time and you will think back and say, yup there was this dickhead called Ravi at NG who said all this things about the girls and looks like he is right on the money.
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:19:26 am
Nithya–I think Jayshah used the word ‘inefficiency’ in humor..I don’t think he believes that
and well said on the Estrogen thing.
Elvis 19 October 2007
05:23:15 am
Women are interesting species.They have their own rules and you gotta play by them.Also the rules are subject to change from moment to moment.What was valid a few minutes ago may not be valid any longer.Never fall into the trap of thinking you have understood them completely or their needs and desires as they will turn that belief on its head in a moment.There are only two rules of operation here:
1.Women are always right
2.When you think they are wrong,look at rule no.1
They make the rules and they can change them and break them.We just obey the rules.
And funny thing is ,I am fine with this!
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:24:26 am
Ravi–I absolute believe in and agree to everything you said on women Ravi bhai. I was just blabbing there..he he. Actually, most of the times, when we hear this kinda conversation..and when someone says women are caring, women are kind..it’s not meant to highlight the qualities of women but rather hint at the shortcomings of men
. That’s why I just added all those points. Yes, I absolutely believe that women are superior to men in every conceiveable way..but men are not that bad as they’re made out to be 
Ravi 19 October 2007
05:24:28 am
Nithya, Jay does understand women.
But, the thing that he does not understand about them is how come they don’t fall for him when he hits on them. He is more loving, caring and sensible than all of them combined, plus he sends them a lot of emails and letters which normally he would not do, that is what he does not understand about them. Right, Jay?
Ravi 19 October 2007
05:26:36 am
Well said Rajen bhai, are you a DKD or a talking quack(Psychiatrist)?
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:26:51 am
Elvis–brilliant!,you just summarized the story of every man’s life
..and yeah I’m fine with those rules too.
sandy 19 October 2007
05:27:54 am
The desire to be loved and cared for, is unsatiable in a woman. Sadly, most men don’t stand up to this test.
They remain just spoilt little boys at any given age!
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:28:17 am
Rajen kaun hai?
Elvis 19 October 2007
05:31:36 am
Sunny,
that what I have been asking for last two weeks-wHO IS THIS Rajen guy????????
Ravi 19 October 2007
05:32:14 am
Sandhya “They remain just spoilt little boys at any given age!”
That is exactly what my wife says about me, that she has three kids , first my 10 year old daughter, second our 5 year old son and the youngest me.
Arun 19 October 2007
05:32:37 am
” Yes, they are infinitely more caring than men when it comes to their parents, siblings,close friends,children, close relatives, but on a broader picture I feel men indulge in general acts of goodness and kindness far more than women do”
Very well said, Sunny!
Men are pretty caring as well, it’s just that they prefer not to express it much.
Ravi 19 October 2007
05:34:27 am
Sunny ” Yes, they are infinitely more caring than men when it comes to their parents, siblings,close friends,children, close relatives, but on a broader picture I feel men indulge in general acts of goodness and kindness far more than women do”
Yes, Sunny you are right by the time they finish caring for their parents, siblings,close friends,children, close relatives they do not have much time left to care for the rest of the population.
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:35:20 am
Sandy–It’s not as if men don’t satnd up to this test Sandy. IMO passion is something which women overrate too much, and that is THE main reason for most women’s dissatisfactions. A man just cannot run after you with a rose in his hand, praising your beautiful eyes and lips every minute(oh! how much I’ve done this in college)
, with time some things don’t remain so verbal and physical as they used to be…what remains is a strong sense of companionship, bonding, trust, respect and an even greater love for each other. I think this should be valued more, but most women seem to be looking for the passion whenever they desire(i’m not saying all of them, but there’s certainly a sizeable lot). So I don’t think it’s the failure of men as such(of course, many men are outright pigs, all those cheaters with roving eyes), it’s more like expecting something which one really shouldn’t and try and find the silver linings.
sandy 19 October 2007
05:36:23 am
Elvis & others: Talking of gender rules, here’s something I find incredibly funny.
It’s written by a man who seems to know women and their quirks quite well…
The Guy rules:
We always hear “the rules” from the female side. Now here are the
rules from the male side. These are our rules! Please note… these are
all numbered “1″…ON PURPOSE!
1. Shopping is NOT a sport. And no, we are never going to think of it that way.
2. Crying is blackmail.
3. Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do
not work! Strong hints do not work! Obvious hints do not work! Just
say it!
4. “Yes” and “No” are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.
5. Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That’s
what we do. Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.
6. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.
7. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. In
fact, all comments become null and void after 7 days.
8. If you won’t dress like the Victoria’s Secret girls, don’t expect
us to act like soap opera guys.
9. If you think you’re fat, you probably are. Don’t ask us.
10. If something we said can be interpreted two ways and one of the
ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.
11. Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials.
12. Christopher Columbus did not need directions and neither do we.
13. ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach,
for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have
no idea what mauve is.
14. If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that.
15. If we ask what is wrong and you say “nothing,” we will act like
nothing’s wrong. We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the
hassle.
16. If you ask a question you don’t want an answer to, expect an answer you don’t want to hear.
17. When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine…Really.
18. Don’t ask us what we’re thinking about unless you are prepared to
discuss such topics as baseball, the shotgun formation, or monster trucks.
19. You have enough clothes.
20. You have too many shoes.
21. I am in shape. Round is a shape.
22. Thank you for reading this. Yes, I know, I have to sleep on the couch tonight; but did you know men really don’t mind that? It’s like
camping.
Elvis 19 October 2007
05:36:44 am
Its a women’s world.We just happen to live in it.And life would be pointless without them.Love them,cherish them,spoil them.Never berate,disrespect or insult them.They are pretty strong and can probably do without us but we certainly would be lost and lonely without them.
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:38:58 am
yeah even my wife calls me bachha
drives me mad with this.
Ravi bhaiyya..aap mere peeche pad gaye
. I’m just trying to hold the taraazu from completely touching ground on the female side..that’s all.
Elvis 19 October 2007
05:39:28 am
Sandy,
Thats bang on target.Agree with everything except rule 21.I think these should be tattoed somewhere on a woman’s body at birth.Naah,actually if they start doing these,the fun would go out.
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:41:46 am
I’ve read this long ago Sandy, and yeah I agree with almost every rule in there. That I can’t follow my own rules at home is another matter
sandy 19 October 2007
05:43:32 am
I know Sunny, everyone has probably read this already. This is just for those who missed it.
Ravi 19 October 2007
05:46:30 am
Ok Sunny, lo you are free. By the way thanks for fighting for us guys rights.
Elvis 19 October 2007
05:50:11 am
In the same vein but a little unrelated 28 rules of manhood.Apologise if you have already seen them before or if it offends anybody!
The 28 Rules of Manhood
1: Under no circumstances may two men share an umbrella.
2: It is OK for a man to cry ONLY under the following circumstances:
(a) When a heroic dog dies to save its master.
(b) The moment Angelina Jolie starts unbuttoning her blouse.
(c) After wrecking your boss’s car.
(d) One hour, 12 minutes, 37 seconds into “The Crying Game”.
(e) When she is using her teeth.
3: Any Man who brings a camera to a bachelor party may be legally killed and eaten by his buddies.
4: Unless he murdered someone in your family, you must bail a friend out of jail within 12 hours.
5: If you’ve known a guy for more than 24 hours, his sister is off limits forever unless you actually marry her.
6: Moaning about the brand of free beer in a buddy’s fridge is forbidden. However complain at will if the temperature is unsuitable.
7: No man shall ever be required to buy a birthday present for another man. In fact, even remembering your buddy’s birthday is strictly optional. At that point, you must celebrate at a strip bar of the birthday boy’s choice.
8: On a road trip, the strongest bladder determines pit stops, not the weakest.
9: When stumbling upon other guys watching a sporting event, you may ask the score of the game in progress, but you may never ask who’s playing.
10: You may flatulate in front of a woman only after you have brought her to climax. If you trap her head under the covers for the purpose of flatulent entertainment, she’s officially your girlfriend.
11: It is permissible to drink a fruity alcohol drink only when you’re sunning on a tropical beach… and it’s delivered by a topless model and only when it’s free.
12: Only in situations of moral and/or physical peril are you allowed to kick another guy in the balls
13: Unless you’re in prison, never fight naked.
14: Friends don’t let friends wear Speedos. Ever. Issue closed.
15: If a man’s fly is down, that’s his problem, you didn’t see anything.
16: Women who claim they “love to watch sports” must be treated as spies until they demonstrate knowledge of the game and the ability to drink as much as the other sports watchers.
17: A man in the company of a hot, suggestively dressed woman must remain sober enough to fight.
18: Never hesitate to reach for the last beer or the last slice of pizza, but not both, that’s just greedy.
19: If you compliment a guy on his six-pack, you’d better be talking about his choice of beer.
20: Never join your girlfriend or wife in discussing a friend of yours, except if she’s withholding sex pending your response.
21: Phrases that may NOT be uttered to another man while lifting weights:
a) Yeah, Baby, Push it!
b) C’mon, give me one more! Harder!
c) Another set and we can hit the showers!
22: Never talk to a man in a bathroom unless you are on equal footing: i.e., both urinating, both waiting in line, etc. For all other situations, an almost imperceptible nod is all the conversation you need.
23: Never allow a telephone conversation with a woman to go on longer than you are able to have sex with her. Keep a stopwatch by the phone. Hang up if necessary.
24: The morning after you and a girl who was formerly “just a friend” have carnal, drunken monkey sex, the fact that you’re feeling weird and guilty is no reason for you not to nail each other again before the discussion occurs about what a big mistake it was.
25: It is acceptable for you to drive her car. It is not acceptable for her to drive yours.
26: Thou shalt not buy a car in the colors of brown, pink, lime green, orange or sky blue.
27: The girl who replies to the question “What do you want for Christmas?” with “If you loved me, you’d know what I want!” gets an Xbox. End of story.
28: There is no reason for guys to watch Ice Skating or Men’s Gymnastics. Ever. We’ve all heard about people having guts or balls. But do you really know the difference between them? In an effort to keep you informed, the definition of each is listed below:
~ GUTS is arriving home late after a night out with the guys, being assaulted by your wife with a broom, and having the guts to say, “are you still cleaning or are you flying somewhere?”
~ BALLS is coming home late after a night out with the guys smelling of perfume and beer, lipstick on your collar, slapping your wife on the bottom and having the balls to say, “You’re next!”
We hope this clears up any confusion,
The International Council of Manhood, Ltd.
Sunny 19 October 2007
05:50:33 am
“They are pretty strong and can probably do without us but we certainly would be lost and lonely without them.”
I disagree….I’d like to believe my wife could not do wihout me
. I mean I had given 2 years of college wooing her, then 2 years way from her in phirang land, a couple of years making a stable career..all the time loving her missing her..wanting to finally marry her.NO, I don’t believe she could do without me, nor could any woman who truly loves any man.
jayshah 19 October 2007
05:57:14 am
‘jayshah,
Your last comment proves that you certainly don’t understand women! ‘
Nithi it was all tongue in cheek…but as Rajen said…you are right !
‘Right, Jay?’
Ravi indeed so. I understand women but don’t like getting screwed over ! And have been done so a few times before !
Sunny 19 October 2007
06:11:12 am
Elvis–the GUTS vs BALLS bit is hilarious!! LOL
Ravi 19 October 2007
06:12:45 am
I like and agree with most if not all of the rules Rajen bhai.
Paddy 19 October 2007
06:12:57 am
I would not get into the gender discussion (LOL!!), but I do feel that such pictures should be put as a link. Since when we access the site from office and other public places, it is a tad bit embarassing..:-)
As for the comments…… dont mind them… though some self-censorship is good..but am fine… Hope u guys understand.
Paddy 19 October 2007
06:12:58 am
I would not get into the gender discussion (LOL!!), but I do feel that such pictures should be put as a link. Since when we access the site from office and other public places, it is a tad bit embarassing..:-)
As for the comments…… dont mind them… though some self-censorship is good..but am fine… Hope u guys understand.
rks 19 October 2007
09:32:53 am
JS:”I am the least bit qualified for a discussion on how men and women behave.”
call Elvis – the Teacher
.
JS:”On the second comment, would put that down to women’s propensity to gossip and talk is a lot more than a mans !”
My wife and friend’s wife spent 2-3 hours in discussing what cloths and jewelry to wear for this weekend party and I can see the happiness from their faces. At end they concluded they should do this more often
FloydRulez : Some good posts.
Ravi:”My wife talks to her sister everyday( I keep asking her what was so new everyday to talk about) and I speak like once a month with my brother and that too after the first minute I start asking “what else”.”
satyam 19 October 2007
09:35:08 am
haven’t read the comments but what post is being referred to here?
jayshah 19 October 2007
09:36:16 am
‘Elvis – the Teacher’
LOL Good one rks. Actually sounds like a name for a porno film.
jayshah 19 October 2007
09:36:59 am
Sherlyn Chopra MAXIM pictures post !
rks 19 October 2007
09:38:34 am
Satyam: LINK
We are missing Q in this wonderful discussion.
satyam 19 October 2007
09:40:26 am
thanks Jay and Rks.. will have to get back to this later..
rockstar the dumb 19 October 2007
09:53:14 am
“Sherlyn Chopra MAXIM pictures post !” well i was the one who posted because in the past i saw some other post related to maxim in naachgaana my apology if i have offended anyone
Elvis 19 October 2007
09:58:34 am
Re:‘Elvis – the Teacher’
LOL Good one rks. Actually sounds like a name for a porno film.
Oh,Jay.Ye of dirty mind!
rockstar the dumb 19 October 2007
10:09:48 am
one of the post which got highest views is related to maxim , so there are many thats was my criteria for posting it aside i dont remember passing any offensive comment about anyone’s sexuality or cheap comments on sexual basis
Sambaba 19 October 2007
10:11:56 am
Personally, I don’t have a problem with such comments and there should be some limits to discussing in on a public forum like NG. If someone from our own forum is uncomfortable with the comments, we need to respect that and lower our limits instead of justifying the terms used and so on. The whole point is discuss topics and terms which won’t be embarrasing to anyone here. So, I’m with Nithya and there have been times where the limits have been crossed on NG.
Sambaba 19 October 2007
10:14:40 am
Great discussion guyz especially Sandy, Floyd, Sunny, Elvis & Jay.
rockstar the dumb 19 October 2007
10:16:37 am
aside i request the author here to go around and make code conduct to not allow any celebs to be bare chested or not to show abs or to all celebs no to go around in a revealing clothes
Elvis 19 October 2007
10:17:16 am
Agree with Sambaba.Shouldnt make any body uncomfotble.
Rockstar,you certainly didnty break any unwritten rules by posting the pics.Some of the ensuing comments were rather graphic.
rockstar the dumb 19 October 2007
10:18:33 am
aside i request the author here to go around and make code conduct to not allow any celebs to be bare chested or not to show abs or to all celebs not to go around in revealing clothes
rockstar the dumb 19 October 2007
10:21:31 am
“But its great to read the writings of an intellectual genius who persuasively presents arguments that there could be creative shallowness behind well conceived scripts like “Chak De India”. All you see in other movie forums are knowledge deficiency and fanatic obsession on celebrities. These cannot satisfy our needs of critical analysis. Which is why this site works.”well look who is talking who made baseless comments like madhwan paid maniratnam to be in guru, one actor is dull another one is useless bla bla bla
rockstar the dumb 19 October 2007
10:32:46 am
“We are here to discuss movies and unavoidably about Stars. Guys have the freedom to send links to each other and keep their discussion in private chats and personal mailboxes. Please don’t let the standard of this site stoop to the levels of a Porn site.
” another immature quote author should look at history of the site and posts first(nobody ever posted any porn stuff here) ,aside author should send mails to all major bollywood site to not post them if he/she is hurt
Elvis 19 October 2007
10:36:55 am
Rockstar,
Chill dude.I think its not the post but the comments that are largely responsible for the furore.Maxim pics have been posted before without protests.
rockstar the dumb 19 October 2007
10:38:04 am
“But its great to read the writings of an intellectual genius who persuasively presents arguments that there could be creative shallowness behind well conceived scripts like “Chak De India” lol well every person has the right to express his opinion ,there are many who are not in agreement with ur views of guru (for e.g) so what one has to move on one should take different views to
rockstar the dumb 19 October 2007
10:46:59 am
well elvis these commets are on behalf of someone who is busy making code of coduct for the posts aside rohit is the boss here and he know to keep brand naachgaana going .
“Though I do not exactly have very delicate sensibilities when it comes to these matters, I have to agree with Nithya and Sunny here that some of these some posts are getting increasingly vulgar and cheap” well if u get these comments u will automatically get the replies
rks 19 October 2007
10:47:26 am
Elvis:”Rockstar,Chill dude.”
Elvis – The moderator
rockstar: Agree with Rajen that the furore is about the comments, not your post. Previously there were posts with Amisha, Mandira photos which IMO were worse than Sherlyn’s.
I am partly guilty of giving the link which became the subject of discussion.
Sambaba 19 October 2007
10:50:02 am
Sandy:”The desire to be loved and cared for, is unsatiable in a woman. Sadly, most men don’t stand up to this test.”
Hmmm…
sandy 19 October 2007
11:04:54 am
Hey, was just watching on-the-sets of Om Shanti Om’s grand item number on NDTV with all the 30 odd stars.
This is certainly going to be a major highlight though I’m not sure if it was a good idea to reveal such a considerable portion of the song already. Farah needs to go a bit easy on the promotion IMO.
Anyway, I believe all the major stars are there, except Aamir. Dunno about Hrithik.
You know, I actually like the fact that Aamir keeps a certain healthy professional rivalry with SRK. I mean, the two superstars get along fine personally and even meet at each others place on and off, but professionally, Aamir has always been competitive and that’s something to consider.
Whether it’s KBC or Koffee With Karan and now OSO, Aamir has always declined to join these ‘SRK celebrating’ events and rightly so!
There has to be a certain sense of competition among stars competing for that one top spot, and Aamir recogonises this vital aspect. He’s not going to ‘aid’ a rival’s career ever!
As for the other top stars, Salman Khan is not an SRK equal in the real sense anymore, so it doesn’t matter.
Again, given Akshay’s enormously growing stature after Bhool Bhulaiya, I doubt he will be thrilled about having SRK in an item song (Heyy Babyy) as the song’s highlight in future. Akshay is another guy acutely conscious of star positioning.
My personal belief is that equals will not show any of this ‘buddy-buddy’ professional benevolence and they shouldn’t!
Elvis 19 October 2007
11:07:23 am
Re:”The desire to be loved and cared for, is unsatiable in a woman. Sadly, most men don’t stand up to this test.”
Elvis -The professor says it should be ‘insatiable’ and not unsatiable.
As regards to ’standing up’ to the task,I will let the comment pass without twisting it.
Qalandar 19 October 2007
11:09:12 am
I missed an eventful day at NG clearly.
Elvis 19 October 2007
11:14:18 am
Q,
Have some self-respect.It can never be an event till you show up.I always say its never a party till either Elvis or the police shows up.
Sambaba 19 October 2007
11:15:26 am
Sandy, Farah said Aamir was very sweet and wanted to shoot but got busy with the issues with TZP and couldn’t take off a day or two back to Mumbai especially with the way things were with TZP. He’s the only major star who didn’t mind it. Also, it won’t make send is Aamir is dancing upon someone’s Filmfare award victory when he hardly valvues the awards. Hrithik, Abhishek and Akshay were not asked for this song as they are the stars nominated along with Om Kapoor and they already have their sp appearances there. Farah didn’t want the same ‘losing’ stars coming to OK’s party for the award that evening and dancing for SRK, LOL!
satyam 19 October 2007
11:15:50 am
Sandy: Aamir does not feature in OSO at all nor does Hrithik. And some of the stars do not feature in that song. For example Abhishek and Akshay shows up at the awards ceremony and are shown competing with SRK.
Sambaba 19 October 2007
11:16:46 am
” He’s the only major star who didn’t mind it. Also, it won’t make send is Aamir is dancing upon”
Errors:
He’s the only major star who didn’t DO it. Also, it won’t make SENSE is Aamir is dancing upon…
Qalandar 19 October 2007
11:17:31 am
Good discussion — I think there can be little doubt we have surpassed Maxim’s expectations (itne words to Maxim ke poore issue mein nahin hote honge).
I might add that the “lad” magazines are Britain’s biggest curse to contemporary culture: magazines like Maxim, FHM, Gear, whatever else, are part of a “lowering” of standards IMO; i.e. it is NOT about raunchiness, but about the fact that increasingly male sexuality appears to be descending into the merely puerile (let’s not take our Freud so literally here). In the US the trend is pretty far advanced, so wasn’t thrilled to hear that Maxim would be setting up shop in India too.
Then there’s a “standardization” problem: as in some other “marketing”/consumption paradigms, this is part of a trend towards standardization, and the effacement of difference is the result. That is, at this rate pretty soon everyone on earth will be extolling the virtues of the SAME sort of female beauty, or considering the SAME sort of physical attributes “hot.” We see this quite obviously with advertising, brown-dyed (i.e. “lighter”) hair, same sort of body types, everywhere, and Maxim is entirely symptomatic of this sort of thing. Heck all their women, be it the US edition or the Indian edition, appear to be in the same sorts of poses, with the same sorts of pouts, and increasingly the same sort of body types (or at least they are represented the same way), although maybe they are more clothed in the Indian edition.
I confess it freely: I am a snob in these matters. And I’m bored.
rks 19 October 2007
11:18:44 am
Good post Sandy on star competition. I think Aamir’s Ace comment in response to SRK being King was in same line.
sandy 19 October 2007
11:23:23 am
Sameer: Aamir’s problem in not participating in the song may have been genuine but certainly, I stand by what I said about him being very competitive in these matters!
I repeat, he will not join a ‘SRK celebrating’ moment.
Elvis 19 October 2007
11:26:29 am
Q,
To satisfy your snobbery and alleviate your boredom I will write to Maxim and have an entire issue devoted to pics of females with pendulous breasts,flabby behind and enough tires in between so that you cant count them on your fingertips.
I do agree on the general point that the pics are kind of monotonous and I dont really care much for them.Anyway I look at these kind of magazines only for the good articles and the editorial contents!
sandy 19 October 2007
11:28:29 am
“For example Abhishek and Akshay shows up at the awards ceremony and are shown competing with SRK.”
Exactly Satyam. These things are important on a certain level, even if it’s withen a film.
Sambaba 19 October 2007
11:29:21 am
Agree Sandy. I agree he won’t do anything like that. Even I would want whenever SRK and Aamir come together on screen, it has be worth it and not just some sp. appearance. Moreover, Aamir is hardly known for doing sp. apperances or walk-ons roles for anyone in this industry, be it his friends or rivals. On the other hand, SRK, Sanju & Salman don’t mind doing any number of sp. appearances to any known person.
Farah asked Dev Anand to join the song and he politely declined that he has never done any sp.app in 60 years of his career and don’t wanna break that now when all his life he has done ‘only’ hero roles. I whole heartedly agree with that. If Aamir wants to do the same thing, its alright. Its not as if he keeps on doing guest roles for others and not doing for SRK, he is hardly interested in such offers.
sandy 19 October 2007
11:39:09 am
Sameer: Certainly Aamir has not made a cheap practise of these guest appearances like some other heroes do, but he has, nevertheless, made exceptions for special friends.
For example, he did an entire song in Damini for Raj Kumar Santoshi.
Later, he made a brief appearance in Ashutosh Gowariker’s Pehla Nasha.
Aarkayne 19 October 2007
11:39:30 am
Sambaba:”Moreover, Aamir is hardly known for doing sp. apperances or walk-ons roles for anyone in this industry”
The only time I remember him having done a special appearance was for Raj Kumar Santoshi in DAMINI and that was because ANDAZ APNA APNA was being made. Those days he was apparently Santoshi’s only close friend from the industry , who also attended his wedding after the heartbreak Meenakshi Sheshadri caused by turning him down.
I wonder what happened between the two. Would love to see the two get back together.
AB Jr. has become a sp.appearance specialist too…i have lost count in how many movies he has now appeared in fleeting roles.
Sambaba 19 October 2007
11:49:04 am
“Sameer: Certainly Aamir has not made a cheap practise of these guest appearances like some other heroes do”
What’s cheap about it? LoL. Anyways Aamir in early 90’s is different from what he is now. He was hardly a star and Damini’s song was ‘proper’ apperance as the stage song whereas Pehla Nasha had almost the whole industry doing appearances from SRK to Salman to Aamir.
Sambaba 19 October 2007
11:50:45 am
“He was hardly a star LIKE NOW*…
sandy 19 October 2007
11:54:44 am
Hey talking of Dev Anand, the Penguin publishers send me his autobiography, Romancing with Life for a review. While most of it is, of course, true to his Libran spirit, where the actor talks with much exuberance about his career and life, I was amazed by his views on Awwal Number, the film he directed with Aamir Khan.
Surely it is the height of self-delusion for him to believe that Awwal Number was ‘ahead of its times’ and even provided the germ of the idea for Lagaan!
But there are also some interesting bits here. One being, how he was totally in love with Zeenat Aman and went mad with jealousy when she opted to do a Raj Kapoor film.
sandy 19 October 2007
11:58:00 am
Sameer: It’s just my personal view, that a relatively top actor doing too many guest appearances ‘cheapens’ his star appeal.
It’s okay to do a steller role like Rajesh Khanna’s in Andaz, where he almost stole the show from Shammi Kapoor in that one single song, but to come in inconsequential parts film after film isn’t too cool.
NyKavi 19 October 2007
12:07:50 pm
My apologies to all the female members for the use of lewd words in that post.
Only explanation: I got carried away in a bit of patriotic zeal in response to Sherlyn’s condescending disapproval of Indian Male Performance.
Personally, I agree with Sandyji that mental amor is the prelude to anything physical.
To make up for my lewdness, I promise to post a few of my poems someday, hopefully female members would be more convinced of my sincerity and respect for women.
Qalandar 19 October 2007
12:08:09 pm
I agree with you sandy. I find the sheer number of Abhishek’s small appearances quite irritating. In fact I dislike them in direct proportion to the extent to which I am a fan.
FloydRulez 19 October 2007
12:14:51 pm
“I promise to post a few of my poems someday, hopefully female members would be more convinced of my sincerity and respect for women.”
LOL!
sandy 19 October 2007
12:27:29 pm
NyKavi: That’s so sweet of you but you really don’t have to be apologetic.
In any case, I’m not cracking the whip here.
NyKavi 19 October 2007
12:38:17 pm
Sandyji, thanks for being understanding.
Jab shaayar apne alfaaz mein ghazal ke bajai gaali pesh kare, to kadardano ke dilon mein thes to pahunchegi hi sahi.
On another note, the thought of “you cracking the whip” can take this discussion into a completely different dimension.lol.
Sambaba 19 October 2007
01:04:23 pm
“Sameer: It’s just my personal view, that a relatively top actor doing too many guest appearances ‘cheapens’ his star appeal.”
Agree Sandy. I’m not certainly not impressed with unnecessary sp.appearance but mostly Sanju and Salman does for small time film makers to help them sell the film. Even SRK did is doing for Dulha Mil Gaya, Silsilay, Kuch Meetha ho jaye, so on. Certainly not like Heyy Babyy ones.
Rocky 19 October 2007
01:09:25 pm
hritik and SRK guest appeared for “I see you”, that arjun Rampal’s stupid movie.
Rocky 19 October 2007
01:12:27 pm
A very good discussion, overall I agree with who ever said that the pics should be in the posts and visible only if you click on that post. That way you have the dial in your hand.
satyam 19 October 2007
02:39:55 pm
“I repeat, he will not join a ‘SRK celebrating’ moment”
Sandy, you’re quite right on Aamir with that comment. Nor will hrithik for that matter. Of course if they had they probably would have been part of the nominations along with Abhishek and Akshay (didn’t I just put these 5 stars in my top bracket?!).
There is a certain symbolism to this moment of course. SRK gets to be first among equals but the other stars showing have a similar status. I do believe that such a moment for SRK isn’t as effective as it might have been some years ago. Specially with an Akshay Kumar who’s red hot at the box office at the moment! Or an Abhishek post-Guru!
But yeah it sounds like a fun scene.
akshay shah 19 October 2007
05:45:11 pm
This post has gone from good to fantastic overnight!!!! Superb read
JasonTodd 19 October 2007
06:49:10 pm
anyone wanna summarize this for me?
no way im reading all of this
Nitesh 19 October 2007
07:54:13 pm
Jason…please let me try my hand in the herculean request that you made…
Our buddies on NG have agreed to be cautious on posting comments that may hurt others on NG (both male and female). This has been done in the most amicable way and after understanding the point of view of each other.
We had excellent participation from male and female, liberals and conservatives, lovables and likables.
However, please go thru this post as it is immensely enjoyable and sometimes thought provoking.
I am particularly impressed with the way we care for each other’s feelings on NG. Shows how much maturity and empathy we have for each other without even knowing each other personally.
Cheers too all who participated in this discussion.
akshay shah 20 October 2007
12:51:22 am
On the topic of men dancing round women…check out this clip! And cops at that…we really are a simple bunch;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPzunC2E4Eg
A.Shah
JasonTodd 20 October 2007
07:40:57 pm
dude
this is soo like the man trying to keep me down.
sidenote, i dont think i said anything offensive. i was actually making a joke at the expense of my fellow guys, and what ever love they may had for sherlyn.
as to me toning down and being nice, NO WAY
until rohit finally bans me or makes me admin I’m staying as moi aussi
nithi_s 22 October 2007
12:11:26 am
” do believe that such a moment for SRK isn’t as effective as it might have been some years ago. Specially with an Akshay Kumar who’s red hot at the box office at the moment! Or an Abhishek post-Guru!” ???
Strange! Which puts an equally strange question in my mind. Where is the effectiveness of Amitabh Bachchan when compared to Abhishek post-Guru and Akshay Kumar who’s red hot at the box office???
What about Hrithik,Salman and Aamir? Surely, thess guys should have also lost effectiveness after Abhishek and Akshay have supposedly claimed the audience interest.
Nitesh 22 October 2007
12:21:09 am
Nithya, I guess you have understood Satyam’s comments under a wrong context.
He was agreeing to Sandy’s comments that said
“Hey, was just watching on-the-sets of Om Shanti Om’s grand item number on NDTV with all the 30 odd stars.
I believe all the major stars are there, except Aamir. Dunno about Hrithik.
You know, I actually like the fact that Aamir keeps a certain healthy professional rivalry with SRK. I mean, the two superstars get along fine personally and even meet at each others place on and off, but professionally, Aamir has always been competitive and that’s something to consider.
Whether it’s KBC or Koffee With Karan and now OSO, Aamir has always declined to join these ‘SRK celebrating’ events and rightly so!
There has to be a certain sense of competition among stars competing for that one top spot, and Aamir recogonises this vital aspect. He’s not going to ‘aid’ a rival’s career ever!
As for the other top stars, Salman Khan is not an SRK equal in the real sense anymore, so it doesn’t matter.
Again, given Akshay’s enormously growing stature after Bhool Bhulaiya, I doubt he will be thrilled about having SRK in an item song (Heyy Babyy) as the song’s highlight in future. Akshay is another guy acutely conscious of star positioning.
My personal belief is that equals will not show any of this ‘buddy-buddy’ professional benevolence and they shouldn’t!”
nithi_s 22 October 2007
12:31:56 am
Satyam,
And what about the effectiveness of Abhishek post “Aag”??? Heard that audience booed when he appeared as a surprise special appearence in Mehooba song.
Abhishek had delivered two duds post Guru. Ok if you take LCMD as a full role, JBJ was not only a super-duper flop but also a most hated flop (Infact more hated than KANK). So, how exactly is he effective at the BO???
How can you compare Abhishek with Akshay who has been consistently delivering hits?
nithi_s 22 October 2007
12:34:36 am
Nitesh,
Thanks for the explanation. But my arguments are to question a statement which put Abhishek on the red hot scale along with Akshay.
som 22 October 2007
12:44:43 am
“How can you compare Abhishek with Akshay who has been consistently delivering hits?”
Nithya: as i have said it many times delivering hits is not a big deal anymore, considering the fact that big movies with reasonable hype are getting massive initials.look at KANK it is still a hit in pure technical term but what about its trending.it is bad.same with HB this year,after getting a massive initial, it just faded away very quickly.though it’s trending is not as bad as KANK but it is also not good either.that speaks volumes for movies’s acceptance by the audience.if a movie does a 25 cr in the 1st week and then fails to touch 50 cr at the end, does not make me to believe that the movie has been accepted.thesedays big movies have to do a double of their opening week at the end to indicate that it has been liked by the audience to some extent.
som 22 October 2007
12:47:14 am
i dont know why we are somuch obsessed with the term Hit thesedays without actually realizing whether the movie has been accepted by the people or not.
Nitesh 22 October 2007
12:59:10 am
“as i have said it many times delivering hits is not a big deal anymore”
Som, when did this happen? I thought that in this hit starved industry, a hit movie does make an impact.
“Heyy Babyy is not accepted”- Keep it up!
“thesedays big movies have to do a double of their opening week at the end to indicate that it has been liked by the audience to some extent.”
You have a very strict criteria.
Nitesh 22 October 2007
01:01:06 am
“i dont know why we are somuch obsessed with the term Hit thesedays without actually realizing whether the movie has been accepted by the people or not.”
Well in 90% of the case, a hit movie is accepted. Of course we have exceptions like Din and Kabhi Alvida…who were not quite accepted in the same way as say Hayy Babyy or Bhool Bhulaiya.
Nitesh 22 October 2007
01:01:57 am
“i dont know why we are somuch obsessed with the term Hit thesedays without actually realizing whether the movie has been accepted by the people or not.”
Well in 90% of the case, a hit movie is accepted. Of course we have exceptions like Don and Kabhi Alvida…which were not quite accepted in the same way as say Guru, Partner, Hayy Babyy or Bhool Bhulaiya.
som 22 October 2007
01:04:42 am
“Heyy Babyy is not accepted”- Keep it up!
yes i believe that it is not as accepted as you think it to be.the falls in the subsequent weeks verymuch tell the story.i would say the acceptance rate is just fine for HB imo.it is neither a rejected movie like KANK nor a liked movie like PHP.
nithi_s 22 October 2007
01:09:24 am
som,
You didn’t understand what I said. I wasn’t talking about the acceptance factor … etc
I agree that trending is related the quality of the movie which again is related to the acceptance factor…
What I am talking about is Star Power which as always) is a main factor contributing to a great opening. Even great WOM for an average movie is related to Star power.
This stands for a Star’s effectiveness at BO. I don’t understand what could be the reason why Abhishek is considered effective today?
som 22 October 2007
01:12:01 am
“Of course we have exceptions like Don and Kabhi Alvida…which were not quite accepted in the same way as say Guru, Partner, Hayy Babyy or Bhool Bhulaiya.”
this is again a double standard.let me tell you that the trending of DON is infact better than HB.DON with 24.5 cr opening went on to do a 50 cr i.e less than 50% fall. where as HB with 27 CR opening did not even manage to touch 52 cr i.e more than 50% fall every week.Partner again did superb in the 1st two weeks but then faded away.BB dont know how it will trend.too early to conclude anything about BB.Guru yes trended well, that is IMO an accepted movie in real sense along with CDI.go through Jay’s boxoffice column, you will know it better.
som 22 October 2007
01:13:46 am
“I agree that trending is related the quality of the movie which again is related to the acceptance factor…”
yes that is how we should look at big movies these days not howmuch it made at the end.
jayshah 22 October 2007
01:19:12 am
‘I agree that trending is related the quality of the movie which again is related to the acceptance factor…’
Not quality par se. Trending is only related to how well an audience has connected with a film…quality of a film doesn’t have much to do with it. I am not even sure if quality is a quantitive tool, its subjective so what one person may feel is quality another might not.
‘What I am talking about is Star Power which as always) is a main factor contributing to a great opening. Even great WOM for an average movie is related to Star power.’
Thats very true IMO. A star has the potential to make a hit out of an average movie, or save a bad movie or in CDI’s case turn the box office around in a matter of a couple of shows. Thats a star’s job. But it shouldn’t be (IMO) confused with box office success. I use KANK and MP again here…these are both examples of a star ’saving’ a film in terms of trade, but the acceptance of the audience or the trending suggests the audience disliked the movie and thats the ‘verdict’ that interests me more than anything since I am the audience and not a trader !
Nitesh 22 October 2007
01:19:42 am
Som, good movies that are slow starters always trend well.
Movies with hit starcast open with bang.
Sorry to give you a shock but Don did not open as good as Heyy Babyy.
Moreover Don did not have a tax free movie like CDI to compete with.
So it is unwise to compare two movie’s trending that have released in different circumstances and then say that movie A is better than movie B.
I guess most of us on NG have agreed that the trending should be used to reach at the final gross and not to compare two different movies.
I hope you have got my point.
Nitesh 22 October 2007
01:23:11 am
Nithya,
As much as i like Abhishek, I must admit that he has lost some way since Guru.
It maky look that he is back to the dumps but a good movie analyst like you will know that he is still considered a good actor. That’s the reason he has some interesting lineup of projects. Don’t you think he has a good chance to recover ground next year?
Nitesh 22 October 2007
01:24:33 am
Som Bhai…again unlike Heyy Babyy, Don did not enjoy a solo release.
I agree with Jayshah that
“Trending is only related to how well an audience has connected with a film…quality of a film doesn’t have much to do with it. I am not even sure if quality is a quantitive tool, its subjective so what one person may feel is quality another might not.”
nithi_s 22 October 2007
01:26:48 am
Going by Satyam’s logic the success of Guru has increased Abhishek’s effectiveness at BO.
It could have. Because, when a movie really works everyone associated with it gets a lift. It happened with Munnabhai etc … Did it happen with Guru? Was Guru as widely accepted as much as RBD or LRMB??? I don’t think so. But somehow, as per Satyam, Abhishek became a huge star after Guru.
The critical failure of JBJ should have clearly pulled his Abhishek’s star status down. But, Satyam has always maintained that JBJ was a good movie which the low grade Indian audience failed to understand. When everyone knows JBJ was also totally rejected by critics.
What I mean is that Satyam seems to reject all truth that could directly or indirectly push Abhishek down. He will continue saying Abhishek is effective only because Guru was a critical success.
CDI was a better critical success than CDI. SRK got a bigger lift. So, Satyam agrued that CDI didn’t deserve so much critical success. That he can. But how can he ignore the boost CDI had given to SRK’s career?
So as per Satyam, Guru gave a boost to Abhshek and it remained unaffected with a big dud he gave with JBJ. And then a rejected special appearance and another special appearance with no reaction at all from the audience.
Where is the effectiveness of Abhishek???
nithi_s 22 October 2007
01:32:59 am
Nitesh,
Accepting an actor is good is a factor for BO effectiveness? Then Om Puri, Nasserudin Shah, Irfan Khan and Kay Kay have huge BO effectiveness as well. Some people can think “Abhishek is improving” or “Abhishek can act if he gets a good role” and that does not contribute to BO effectiveness. And Satyam was talking about the current status. Not w.r.t lineup of films in future. Abhishek can always afford a great lineup as it has been over the years.
nithi_s 22 October 2007
01:40:31 am
Jayshah,
I typed that in a haste, yes the word ‘quality’ should be replaced with ‘connect with audience’. But, occasionally the movies that connect do have quality.
Sunny 22 October 2007
01:48:15 am
Whoa!!! what a turn this thread has taken, and quite an interesting one too
Superb exchange of thoughts between Nithya and Satyam. SRK is the ‘first among equals’ yeah, but I wouldn’t make an equal out of Akshay in any sense, least of all Abhishek!.
Let’s journey back sometime ago; mid-late eighties and early nineties..Anil Kapoor, Sanjay Dutt, Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Sunny Deol…all big stars giving competition to Amitabh. Anil Kapoor at that time,was in fact doing exactly what Hritik has been doing to SRK post 2001. He was doing good films, getting successes as well garnering critical acclaim. Saaheb, Yudh, Meri Jung in 85–Chameli Ki Shaadi, Jaanbaaz, Karma(year’s biggest grosser) in 86– Mr. India in 87–Tezaab in 88(which was the year’s biggest grosser again, got best Actor filmfare even though Amitabh in Shahenshah was also nominated!!)–Raam Lakhan in 89(year’s second biggest grosser, what can you expect when you have the historical MPK released the same year), the others were doing their bit too, but I’m sure everybody knows that. I just used Anil Kapoor as he was the only one who was considered a ’serious’ threat to Amitabh during his reign..So what does this prove? Does it prove that Amitabh Bachhan was the first among equals at this point??? That he had to share that elite class with Sanjay Dutt, Salman Khan, Aamir Khan. NO WAY! Similarly the case with SRK..he was the biggest box office force in bollywood till 2005( I don’t really see how that has changed now though,KANK and DON make this case rather strong if one wishes to acknowledge it, and now esp. after CDI and OSO in the pipeline),he’s only one short of equalling Dilip Kumar’s record 7 Filmfare best actors. And Akshay who has finally found superstardom after 17 years! in the industry or Abhishek Bachhan!!! who had 15 flops till Dhoom came, gave a couple of hits in between, gave a good performance in Guru(and a hit) followed by the debacle UJ and JBJ get the privilege of being ‘equals’ in a league which has SRK,Salman(on a purely fan following basis)and Aamir(yes, him I can definitely see him as an equal on many accounts),even Hritik has a valid shot at this league now, though still marginally below the achievements of SRK or Aamir. I just don’t understand this theory at all. If one believes that SRK is first among equals in the company of Akshay or Abhishek then one must not make ‘god’-ly claims about the Big B after 85.
som 22 October 2007
01:50:06 am
“Sorry to give you a shock but Don did not open as good as Heyy Babyy.’
this is again a debatable point.DON was released in 550 cinemas as comapred to HB in more than 650 cinemas.again as you have rightly said it was not a solo release.if we look at both movies in terms of capacity, i am sure DON has done better than HB as far as the 1st week is concerned.HB i suppose has done anything around 70% over the week, where as for DON it is more than 75%.so here we can say DON has maximized its potential in the presence of other biggie JM as compared to HB which did enjoy the solo advantage.
ps: again i have to say here Don was not completely accepted by the audience as far as the trending is concerned, but yes it has the edge over HB from trending, end nett are concerned.
som 22 October 2007
01:53:12 am
“But, occasionally the movies that connect do have quality.”
agree with Nithya here.most of the movies that connect with the audience lack in quality.take this year for example barring Guru and CDI , i dont think any other movies that did well can be considered good as far as quality is concerned.
Tango 22 October 2007
01:53:51 am
Trending has absolutely nothing to do with audience acceptance at all. Its a crap theory brought up from time to time to prove a point.
Dil Dosti Etc. had a beatiful trending so does it mean that the audience have loved it ( hardly a 40 % fall).
You can get the 40-50 cr in 3-4 weeks or do it the ‘Vivah’ way.
The same Bhool Bhulaiyaa is say 100 theatres of Bombay -Thane would have notched 5.50-5.70 crores with a much lower print, so does it serve any purpose.
Heyy Babyy went to 50 cr in 4-5 weeks, so would it have been a much bigger hit with beautiful trending spread over 7-8 weeks but getting the same 50 cr?
A BIG NO by me because it would have ended up making the same but paying maybe more rentals.
Tango 22 October 2007
01:55:43 am
**with amuch lower print average**
Sunny 22 October 2007
01:59:20 am
Agree with Tango bhai on his trending take. It does come into question, of course, with films like RDB, LRM or CDI which have more repeat value than the other run of the mill stuff out there i.e. a right mix of storytelling brilliance as well as apt dozes of entertainment.
jeegs 22 October 2007
01:59:36 am
nitesh how can One compare Don and Hey babyys opening .
hey babyy was a solo release , releasing on 100 more cinemas and releasing one year after don . in todasy scenario one year would def. give inflation of 3-4 crores.
Again you going on CDi hurting Hey babyys chance it is always otherway round a big new release always affects a older release its never other way round .
just for eg. CDI had only big fall of 45% in hey babyy release week simply due to cut in prints in multiplexes . eg
most of the places in Ahmedabad had 50% cutt off in shows in CDI to accomodate hey babyy.
Tango 22 October 2007
02:04:29 am
CDI people preferred to take it easy with a limited number of prints and increasing it slowly.
With the craze that the movie generated from the second day onwards, YRF could have achieved a much higher total in week 1, but it was their strategy to go slow.
Sometimes, too many prints can backfire too with a shoddy product , as it happened with JP Dutta’s LOC.
som 22 October 2007
02:06:35 am
“Trending has absolutely nothing to do with audience acceptance at all. Its a crap theory brought up from time to time to prove a point.
Dil Dosti Etc. had a beatiful trending so does it mean that the audience have loved it ( hardly a 40 % fall).”
Tango: it seems you are purely talking from business point of view.as far as the theory of trending is concerned i apply for big movies only not the smaller ones like Dil Dosti or Bheza fry. when big movies open with a bang say 25+ cr and then fall by more than 50% every week and ultimately ends it run after 6-7 weeks, can this movie be called as an accepted movie in real sense?take KANK for example, it opened with 28 cr but ended at around 46 cr with around 60% fall every week.can KANK be called as an accepted movie?it may be a hit in technical term, but when it comes to the acceptance from the paying public, it is not.
jeegs 22 October 2007
02:07:36 am
i just wonder what would have been CDI occupnacy from saturday onwards considering it did 20 crores of possible 26 crores and had just 50% occupnacy on friday.
nithi_s 22 October 2007
02:14:53 am
SRK is first among equals w.r.t Star power between contemporaries like Aamir and Salman.
Between the three Khans SRK is the most succesful star. He has had serious competition from a dark horse in Aamir whose consistent good perfomances have gathered great expectations from the audiences.
Since, people had associated the perfectionist title with Aamir, SRK has only been threatened. SRK never lost the BO appeal. Even if lack of critical acclaim and great trending has not been associated with SRK hits, they have been BO hits with great opening.
And of course, there is Hrithik on his way to become the biggest Star of BO. But he seems to be bitten by the Aamir Khan bug of doing only few good movies. He has not had a release since this new found to passion to possess the perfectionist tag has become obvious to the audience.
So, Hrithik is a threat to both SRK and Aamir. How far Hrithik manages to oust both remains to be seen with Jodha Akbhar on other releases. If Hrithik manages to perform as an actor cum star, with a couple of hits he will surely become the No. 1. Clearly he needs a monster hit in JA to reach to topple SRK and other Khans.
Till then by default, SRK with his omnipresence will rule the BO. This whole theory has been slightly upset by Akshay. I dunno where to put him in the top five. May be after Akshay’s next release, it will be obvious.
som 22 October 2007
02:16:07 am
Tango: now one question had NL been not liked by the audience could it have made that much at the end considering its opening was a dissapointment? i doubt, here the trending hepled the movie very much.Unlike NL, HB opened with a bang, sustained well in the 2nd week but from 3rd week onwards it just faded away quickly with more than 60% fall in the subsequesnt weeks.what does this kinda trending indicate? acceptance by the people in real sense!one may say CDI played the spoil sport for HB , but let me ask if the the movie was a real accepted one, the why did it fall so heavily from week 3 onwards?it could have sustained well in the latter weeks say 45-50% average fall, but that did not happen.it verymuch proves, that HB was not really a liked movie as some may think it to be.
som 22 October 2007
02:20:34 am
“great trending has not been associated with SRK hits, they have been BO hits with great opening.”
Nithya: this holds good for that last 3 hits of SRK before CDI.i also do agreee that these 3 movies did not trend well as one would have accepted.VZ trending was just fine, more like that of DON.Kank ofcourse trended badly with consistent 60% fall every week.
Nitesh 22 October 2007
02:22:49 am
Jeegs:
“nitesh how can One compare Don and Hey babyys opening ”
Jeegs I was never comparing. In fact i was telling Som that one cannot compare a solo release like Heyy Babyy with Don.
“you going on CDi hurting Hey babyys chance it is always otherway round a big new release always affects a older release its never other way round”
In the first week Heyy babyy was not affected as it was riding on Akshay wave and other factors.
From week 2, when CDI for the tax free status, what actually happened was that the tickets of CDI was lesser than that of Heyy Babyy.
In India an economically priced good product is always the first choice.
Hence Heyy Babyy, which fell by 40% every week, would actually had fallen lesser (may be 30%) if CDI tickets would have sold at the same price.
jeegs 22 October 2007
02:25:35 am
“now one question had NL been not liked by the audience could it have made that much at the end considering its opening was a dissapointment?”
som now Nl a accepted movie added 20 crores after first week and Kank a hated movie also added 20 crores after first week . so how can one differentiate audience acceptance for both .
there are very less instances whrere great opening is followed with great trending (krrish , dhoom2 , fanna ).
som 22 October 2007
02:25:51 am
“i just wonder what would have been CDI occupnacy from saturday onwards considering it did 20 crores of possible 26 crores and had just 50% occupnacy on friday.”
jeegs:from saturday CDI started to do really well.even in the week days i am sure it must have done better than most of the movies.Wednesday,(independence day)ofcourse was the best.some multiplexes in Bangalore had to increase their shows to accomodate the heavy rush resulted out of people’s extremely positive feedback and critic’s appreciation for the movie.
nithi_s 22 October 2007
02:26:20 am
som,
The concept of trending like Tango says isn’t as much applicable to a mainstream commercial kind of movie. There will always be compromises made in quality of such films which reduce the re-watch factor. An Akshay fan can see re-watch value in HB, but doesn’t apply to everyone. Hence these kind of movies will have inevitable fall in every weekend.
A successful movie means it is accepted by atleast a few among the audience. The ratio of the few decides the trending.
jeegs 22 October 2007
02:33:12 am
“From week 2, when CDI for the tax free status, what actually happened was that the tickets of CDI was lesser than that of Heyy Babyy.
In India an economically priced good product is always the first choice.
Hence Heyy Babyy, which fell by 40% every week, would actually had fallen lesser (may be 30%) if CDI tickets would have sold at the same price.”
wrong information again nitesh CDI was tax free in 3 week only in maharashtra and from week4 in delhi .
also how can hey babyy have only 40% fall it opened at 27 crores and end at 52 crores its more appropriate fall would be 50-55%
the economical expect of film comes in play when both film would have released at same time not after 2 weeks . Indian audience would have watched hey babyy spending 100 rupees rather than watching CDI for 2 time spending 70 rs. so it more of hurts CDI
som 22 October 2007
02:43:55 am
“Hence Heyy Babyy, which fell by 40% every week, would actually had fallen lesser (may be 30%) if CDI tickets would have sold at the same price.”
Nitesh: this is how HB has fallen in the subsequent weeks and then decide howmuch CDI affected and hommuch people have really liked the movie.
2ndweek:46% fall, partner had 37%
3rd week:61%
4th week:55%
5th week:69%
6th week:49%
7th week:55%
it seems after week 1 HB has fallen 55% on an average every week.infact from week 3 onwards the situation is even worse, has fallen around 58% over the subsequesnt weeks.is this trending hold good for an accepted movie?from the trending it seems, the acceptance rate is just fine, noway a liked movie by majority of audience.
som 22 October 2007
02:50:11 am
“som now Nl a accepted movie added 20 crores after first week and Kank a hated movie also added 20 crores after first week . so how can one differentiate audience acceptance for both .”
jeegs:the opening week of KANK was allmost double of that NL.even if KANK falls 60% on an average every week, the nett. will be on the higher side in the subsequent weeks.so a 20 cr for KANK in the latter weeks after the massive initial does not say anything about its acceptance.but a 20 cr for NL on other hand speak much more as people’s liking for the movie is concerned.the people who saw NL in the opening week must have been impressed with the film and the positive feed back must have pulled the audience in the latter weeks.that is what has happened with NL unlike KANK.
Nitesh 22 October 2007
02:50:32 am
Som Bhai…
The general perception in the media and audience is that Heyy Babyy is second only to Partner and Chak De.
Your theory may be logical but for some reason, is different from the preception.
Ab kya karnaa chahte ho?
nithi_s 22 October 2007
02:51:31 am
Coming back to Satyam,
Both KANK and Don had partial acceptance from the audience. The partial rejection would have backlashed on SRK’s star power is one theory. But not if the next SRK movie comes with a hype like “OSO”.
For example, KANK’s bad air did not reflect in the opening of Don, cause there was a hype around Don. So no one can prove that SRK lost something after KANK, which keeps SRK in the top by default yet again.
In CDI’s success, SRK had got a lift, which showed in the whistles his special appearance in Hey Baby gathered. Again the monster hype around OSO puts SRK right on top at the moment.
If OSO goes wrong terribly, it will somehow be seen as evidence to SRK’s fall. But when the same thing happened to JBJ it was not Abhishek’s fault. I wonder why some people think any number of flop does not affect Abhishek’s BO effectiveness!
nithi_s 22 October 2007
02:54:13 am
Forget to add a line …
I wonder why some people think any number of flop does not affect Abhishek’s BO effectiveness, why even a single hit with a bad trending puts SRK down to the pits.
som 22 October 2007
02:57:43 am
“A successful movie means it is accepted by atleast a few among the audience. The ratio of the few decides the trending.”
Nithya: yes if a big movie that opens with a bang and falls 40-45% on an average over the week, then this will can be considered as an accepted movie.this is how trending IMO says about the acceptance/rejection for a movie:
60%+ fall:rejected(KANK,MP,JBJ)
50%:kind of accepted, 50-50 situation, mixed response(DON,HB,BB)
40%:accepted(Krrish,Fanaa,Dhoom 2)
anything below 40%:hugely accepted(RDB,LRM,CDI)
rks 22 October 2007
03:01:53 am
Jeegs:”i just wonder what would have been CDI occupnacy from saturday onwards considering it did 20 crores of possible 26 crores and had just 50% occupnacy on friday.”
http://boxofficeindia.com/Cdiscores.htm
nithi_s 22 October 2007
03:03:25 am
Yes Som,
When a movie is not accepted, it will follow the trending of JBJ or Aag.
som 22 October 2007
03:03:25 am
“The general perception in the media and audience is that Heyy Babyy is second only to Partner and Chak De.”
Media again does not know anything about Boxoffice.just goes superficially.media yet does not know how big Vivah was.
as far as the general perception is concerned, people tend to get influenced by what media shows on TV.howver IMO trending says a lot anout people’s liking for a movie.that is what i believe and will continue to do so.
ps:Bhagam Bhag and TRPP have been declared dissapointment by a certain section of media? does that mean these movies are indeed dissapoinments?
Nitesh 22 October 2007
03:07:36 am
Som Bhai…media is not calling Bhaagam Bhaag a disappointment…in fact they are painting Bhool Bhulaiya as Akshay’s 4th consecutive hit (Bhaagam Bhaag, Namaste London, Heyy Babyy, Bhool Bhulaiya)
Kuch karna padega…media ko kuch nahin pata hai. any tips?
som 22 October 2007
03:08:01 am
“Both KANK and Don had partial acceptance from the audience”
Nithya: you have gone wrong here.dont put DON in the league of KANK here.DON was as i said was accepted may not be in a big way though.it fell 50% on an average every week.
som 22 October 2007
03:11:11 am
nitesh: i said a certain section of media not in entirity.even if you go thorugh most of the trade journals, you will see it has not been declared as a HIT except BOI ofcourse.
som 22 October 2007
03:14:42 am
keeping aside the media, you may take HB, BB as accepted movies with good trending,but i still stand by to what i have said it many times, these movies are not accepted in real sense.add DON in that list too.
nithi_s 22 October 2007
03:17:29 am
Nitesh,
The media reviews said “Bhagam baag” was a disappointment. May be, w.r.t critical standards they set, without taking commercial point of view as criteria.
Som,
The media reviewers are over-aware of certain cliches that they become cynical or unavailble for the movie to connect with them, while the actual audience feel the connect. So, the audience accept some movies which get rejected by critics.
Sometimes, the critics could be impressed with the notion and technicality that they might recommend a movie which failed to connect with the audience.
Even, Swades worked for some critics for its notion and simplicity while w.r.t audience it was seen as slow and boring.
som 22 October 2007
03:20:08 am
you must be thinking that i am trying to pull down Akshay’s movies here, but it is how i look at the big movies these days, whoever be the star of the movie.whether you accept it or not trending will always say about the people’s liking for the movie.
ps:if OSO takes a start of 30 cr and eventually makes anything around 60cr at the end, it will be a dissapointment in my books irrespective of what BOI and other trade journals say.
jayshah 22 October 2007
03:21:47 am
The best way to maximise revenue for a non accepted movie is to maximise the initial. Otherwise a small release stategy would kill it for sure cos WOM % would still be the same.
The best way to maximise revenue for an accepted movie is to also maximise the initial. Get as many ppl watching the movie and since its accepted it will maximise revenue in long run. Thats why CDI could have grossed more – 70Cr plus if it released more prints in smaller centres where it didn’t release !
Trending matters – its a good indicator of a liked movie or a disliked one. Its not a tool ‘dreamed’ up since Hollywood uses it in every box office report they have. When they were looking at the box office performance of Spiderman 3, Shrek 3 and Pirates 3, the key statistic ‘after’ the initial was always the Week 2 ‘drop’. That piece of info dictated to them how the sequel lived upto the previous movies in the franchise. And despite all 3 doing $300MM + and breaking Weekend records, all 3 will be regarded as disappointments in comparison with the previous installments since they didn’t trend nearly as well enough !
KANK/MP might be HIT/average accordingly, but that is a profitability measure ONLY concerning the distributor. And last time I checked India wasn’t a country full of 1Bn distributors !
And the 1Bn people don’t go round saying ‘KANK’ is a HIT film because BOI or Taran says so, they actually might look to see the local newspaper in Week 4 to find out the movie is no longer showing in the theatre and call it a flop film ! Same for MP !
If a film cannot last longer than 7days and the occupancies are dropping down to 30-50% in a cinema hall, how is the movie a HIT film ? And since when have customers cared how much Walmart makes or Tesco makes or IPOD makes as profit…thats a stockholders perogative…a customer only cares that what he buys satisfies him and satisfaction is resonated if that customer goes back to that product or recommends it. If these two things happen, the product runs a little longer ! If they don’t happen the price will come down and ‘desperation’ will sneak in !
These are simple economic priniciples of supply and demand. KANK/MP over supplied and the demand didn’t last. No one wants business like this !
nithi_s 22 October 2007
03:23:30 am
som,
“these movies are not accepted in real sense.add DON in that list too.”
how does it matter?
som 22 October 2007
03:24:16 am
“The media reviewers are over-aware of certain cliches that they become cynical or unavailble for the movie to connect with them, while the actual audience feel the connect. So, the audience accept some movies which get rejected by critics.”
Nithya: you have very well summerized the whole thing.most of the times the rejected films from critics tend to do well commercially.movies like RDB,LRM,CDI and GURU are rare exceptions.
som 22 October 2007
03:28:44 am
“If a film cannot last longer than 7days and the occupancies are dropping down to 30-50% in a cinema hall, how is the movie a HIT film ? And since when have customers cared how much Walmart makes or Tesco makes or IPOD makes as profit…thats a stockholders perogative…a customer only cares that what he buys satisfies him and satisfaction is resonated if that customer goes back to that product or recommends it. If these two things happen, the product runs a little longer ! If they don’t happen the price will come down and ‘desperation’ will sneak in !”
Jay: that is what i have been trying to say.if movie opens with a bang and then cant sustain well and fade away rapidly but still makes money, howcome we can say it is an accepted movie and been liked by majority of audience?
nithi_s 22 October 2007
03:29:28 am
jayshah,
“These are simple economic priniciples of supply and demand. KANK/MP over supplied and the demand didn’t last”
The demand did last for atleast a few weeks. KANK was running after 4 weeks in a few halls. It was hated in the end, but people did watch it. And somepeole did like it.
Look at the trending of JBJ. Thats the real example of a clean flop.
Sunny 22 October 2007
03:30:20 am
“if OSO takes a start of 30 cr and eventually makes anything around 60cr at the end, it will be a dissapointment in my books irrespective of what BOI and other trade journals say”
Disagree completely Som. The reason OSO will get to 30 Cr(or more) in the opening week is beacuse it would have released in about twice as many theaters than say a CDI. Now CDI is supposed to end it’s run at about 64-65 Cr. and it’s probably the most accepted(audience as well as critics) since LRM. Now if an OSO can get to 60 Cr., I don’t see that as a disappointment at all. Because, in the end what it implies is that an almost equal number of people watched both these movies in the theater(and CDI gets the 4-5 Cr. advantage of the repeat watchers). So yes, it’s of course not as accepted as a CDI, but very very rarely does a film connect so much with the audience. 60 Cr. won’t be a disappointment at all for OSO, given the kind of film it is(i’d like to be surprised with the treatment though). Coz by this theory, let’s say OSO breaks D2’s opening record and does 40 Cr.!!, then you would call it a disappointment even if it gets to 80Cr!, which is just not logical.
nithi_s 22 October 2007
03:34:27 am
Som,
I don’t understand why you can’t see a film generating mixed reactions becoming a hit. For example, see the reviews written in MouthShut for DON, some liked it some hated it. Those who liked it could have watched it again. Whats wrong with that?
som 22 October 2007
03:36:53 am
“Coz by this theory, let’s say OSO breaks D2’s opening record and does 40 Cr.!!, then you would call it a disappointment even if it gets to 80Cr!, which is just not logical.”
sunny: if that happnes we can only say maximum people did watch the movie in the theatre for whatever reasons.but if the people those who saw in the first week and then gave postive feedbacks then the movie is bound to do more than 80 cr assuming a 40 cr opening.if it does anything around 80 cr or little less, then it will indicate that the movie has not been completely accepted by the audience.
rks 22 October 2007
03:38:22 am
Don
jayshah 22 October 2007
03:38:45 am
‘The demand did last for atleast a few weeks. KANK was running after 4 weeks in a few halls. It was hated in the end, but people did watch it. And somepeole did like it.
Look at the trending of JBJ. Thats the real example of a clean flop.’
Completely agree with this. In fact SEI/ Eklavya and JBJ have shown that both KANK/MP weren’t disastorous. I’d call the latter two below average performers and the first 3 clean flops. The trade would call the first 3 flops, KANK a HIT and MP above average. I’m being a fusspot here because the trade verdict is made out to be something related to how people ‘felt’ about the movie. If it was ONLY used a profitabilty measure and the terminology of HIT was done away with (as a member of the audience if someone is telling me X film is a HIT film he is indirectly telling me he liked it, a trade verdict should NOT serve this purpose)
‘Coz by this theory, let’s say OSO breaks D2’s opening record and does 40 Cr.!!, then you would call it a disappointment even if it gets to 80Cr!, which is just not logical’
No this theory as I see it takes into consideration the initial, the total gross and the rate of fall. All three tools together should be used.
som 22 October 2007
03:40:07 am
“I don’t understand why you can’t see a film generating mixed reactions becoming a hit.”
Nithya: mixed reaction is what i am fine with it.but the movies that met with mixed reactions cant be considered as accepted movie by any means.acceptance means when majority of people like a movie.the percentage of people who liked the movie is more than who didnt.
Sunny 22 October 2007
03:40:58 am
Exactly Nithya, while I don’t disagree completely with what Som is saying about trending. But we have several kinds of films in our industry..some are hugely loved, some are loved, some are liked very much, some are just liked, some have mixed reactions and some are rejected outright. By the theory Som is trying to propose it seems only the most classic of movies are accepted, which is not true. Heyy Baby was as loved and accepted as NL or Guru in my book, that a majority of the audience went to see in it’s first week is not something I’ll hold against Heyy Baby.
beldevere 22 October 2007
03:44:00 am
sunny – for once i agree with you only partially….lol
Yes your point is correct that if a movie makes 30cr opening and ends at 60cr – it is just another way of getting to 60cr vis-a-vis a 20cr opening and 60cr final number.
but in OSO’s case 60cr is definitely a disappointment – anything less than 65 or 70 would be a disappointment to say the least.
Jay – your points are well made but let me ask you a question. If you notice – gone are the days of 100 day runs and so on. Hindi movies are trying to mimic the Hollywood strategy of ‘make as much money in the first 2 weeks’ and then get out. so how does it matter if a movie makes the money over time or as a quickie – as long as it makes from a purely BO parameter. So just to stir the hornet’s nest – explain why RDB is a bigger hit than Don given both made 50cr or thereabouts. Yes – RDB got much more critical acclaim and had longer legs – but what is the logic of not considering Don a hit? btw – i am using Don as that is a movie which comes to mind as a 50cr even by your calc – not because its a SRK movie…lol
som 22 October 2007
03:46:33 am
this is how i rate these movies in terms of people acceptnce:
flops/disasters:JBJ,SEI,AAG
below average:MP,KANK(jay rightly said)
average-semi hit:HB,DON,BB
hit-superhit:Fanaa,krrish,guru,dhoom2
superhit+:rdb,lrm,cdi,vivah
beldevere 22 October 2007
03:47:34 am
som – taking from the last example i gave, how exactly are you measuring a movie’s ‘acceptability’. is it based on the fact that it had a longer run. i can see some merit to that logic but i dont think its entirely true either. many times its what the media make it out to be. look at partner and CDI – partner made 62 cr and CDI will make 64-65 probably. CDI has done marginally better – but run much longer. but the media has gone ga-ga over CDI which is making it bigger than it actually was at the BO..correct?
nithi_s 22 October 2007
03:48:38 am
Som,
W.r.t KANK you can’t really go by reviews as the standard of Audience acceptance. KANK split the audience in to four groups,
a) People who never like K-Jo style of movie making, hated KANK thoroughly.
b) People who thought movie was good but did not agree with the central theme
c) People who saw it for Star value and didn’t bother much about the theme. (Stars looked good)
d) People who actually liked it. I could state a few MouthShut reviews for this as example.
Somehow amist all this, everybody saw it. And the category 1 was far less compared to the other categories. So it did run for a few weeks may be it falling percentages.
This is an example of mixed reaction. I can tell you the same for DOn. Even MP was liked by some and rejected by a few.
beldevere 22 October 2007
03:51:15 am
again – what if you assume now that the overseas market should also be considered when measuring movie success/failures. Doesnt KANK become a hit/super-hit then. Umrao Jaan become a below average, vivah an average, DON a hit.
btw rdb should be a hit and not a super hit. fanaa did better than rdb
som 22 October 2007
03:54:05 am
beldevere and sunny: my point here is if movies like Partner and HB are really liked by the audience, then howcome these movies kept on falling by more than 50% every week after the initial hype is gone.Partner i feel just did well.but look at HB’s fall in the subsequent weeks,more than 55-60% on an average.does that indicate people really liked the movie and with positive feedback people kept flocking to the theatre?
beldevere 22 October 2007
03:57:37 am
not necessarily true som. what if more people saw partner in the first week – whereas CDI people waited for others to tell them its a good movie and then they went and saw it – it would explain the trending.
i think the opening has lot to do with marketing of the product, the trending has lot to do with quality of the product
now finally when you judge the product – you have to look at both to judge its success or failure
som 22 October 2007
03:58:35 am
Nithya: as far as KANK and MP are concerned, there is a small section of audience who did like the movie, though most of the top critics had appreciated both the movies.
Don i guess was a clear case of mixed reactions.where as the younger generation, who had not seen the old DON liked the movie because of the slick execution and the climax.
Nitesh 22 October 2007
04:01:20 am
“now finally when you judge the product – you have to look at both to judge its success or failure”
very aptly put up by Beldevre
nithi_s 22 October 2007
04:01:32 am
beldevere,
” the trending has lot to do with quality of the product” — thats the point I made before.
jayshah 22 October 2007
04:02:19 am
‘So just to stir the hornet’s nest – explain why RDB is a bigger hit than Don given both made 50cr or thereabouts. Yes – RDB got much more critical acclaim and had longer legs – but what is the logic of not considering Don a hit?’
First I consider Don a HIT based on BOI or my own numbers (I have maintained this always). Because I took into consideration; competition & it trended at 50% roughly.
Secondly, RDB is a bigger hit than Don.
1) Its a smaller film in comparison
2) It started out with a much smaller initial
3) It lasted longer
Now even if we are moving towards Hollywood, are you denying the producer doesn’t ‘want’ his movie to still trend well ? There is no such strategy you are stating. That strategy is a ‘worst case’ scenario strategy. It is a strategy for safety and to gain the minimum gross expected. Every producer would want a good trender AND a big initial. Whether they would prefer a 45Cr grosser that lasted 10weeks or a 45Cr grosser that lasted 2weeks – me thinks the money is the same but the ‘reputation’ and the audience verdict is very different for these two scenarios and they will want the trender. Because the trender ‘insures’ his ass for his next movie. Whereas a Yaadein or a MP doesn’t do anything for that producer/director for his rep or the actor for that matter. In absolute money terms its the same, but are you trying to say Don=RDB ? I doubt cinegoers would agree with this. And I say that based on trending … its for my money the ONLY statistic out there to use to term audience reception of a movie along with the initial and final gross.
So comparing RDB and Don
Initial – Don wins
Gross – a tie
Attrition – RDB wins
But since the gross is the same I take the trender > the initial since this reflects more to me about the audience participation and satisfaction from these two choices. The initial is a reflection of SRK’s star billing, but does not have anything to do with people liking the movie ! So RDB > Don – and who in there right mind would generally question that conclusion ? There maybe a few objections, but overall most people would say RDB was ‘more’ accepted than Don.
And som I completely agree with your classifications although I would say there is a debate for H-B, Don and BB (and TRRP) to be anything from above average to HIT.
som 22 October 2007
04:04:04 am
“i think the opening has lot to do with marketing of the product, the trending has lot to do with quality of the product”
yes i agree with you on this.i think these days it remains to be seen how a movie with a big star performs in the latter weeks once the hype and euphoria die.opening week as i have said many times depends lot on the curiosity factor, how the movie is being marketed etc.etc.but once the initial hype is gone, if the movie does connect with majority of audience will keep on sustaing in the subsequent weeks.the movies that are just liked will just fade away very quickly.
beldevere 22 October 2007
04:07:38 am
Jay – you missed my point. Do you ever see Hollywood advertising 100 day runs or 50 day runs. obviously trending matters and i am not saying it doesnt. if you see my later comment – trending points to quality, in my opinion. But yes there is a clear strategy unlike what you say to maximize in the first 2-3 weeks in Hollywood especially for the big movies. if you look at last summer – we had all the sequels coming one after the other – and the opening is what won them the box office battle in most cases.
when you say RDB was more accepted – i agree but my point was that the media had a large part to play in that. If they grossed as much, then as business propositions – why wouldnt you consider Don and RDB at the same level
som 22 October 2007
04:07:59 am
Jay has perfectly discussed the whole thing.nothing more to add here.trending will always say about people’s liking and involvement with a movie as far as the movies which are bound to take big initials are concerned.
beldevere 22 October 2007
04:09:56 am
now i dont know how much was spent on Don and RDB – so obviously if one had a much higher spend – then the other obviously got a better result
som 22 October 2007
04:11:24 am
“If they grossed as much, then as business propositions – why wouldnt you consider Don and RDB at the same level”
even if from business perspective, RDB is ahead of DON as the former was a smaller movie in comparison to the latter.RDB had a budget of anything around 18 cr where as for DON it was 25-27 cr.
som 22 October 2007
04:14:29 am
i am signing off now.it was a pleasure discussing with Sunny,beldevere, Nithya,Nitesh and Jay ofcourse.
jayshah 22 October 2007
04:18:35 am
beldevere you are talking completely from a trade perspective either as a ‘producer’ or ‘distributor’. In that case the proposition of Don or RDB is based on either the ‘cost’ or the ‘distribution selling price’. I don’t concern myself with either since I am not interested in profit. I am not a distributor !
What is trending related to then ? If it doesnt indicate ‘acceptance’ what does a 30% drop indicate vs a 70% drop ? Does it not reflect anything to do with an audience ?
If I was a businessman then I’d be thinking differently. But I am not. I am part of the audience and the verdict of a film sits with the audience not with the distributor (IMO – I respect others view but unanimously disagree)
nithi_s 22 October 2007
04:18:46 am
But what about this whole Abhishek is effective at BO as much as Akshay theory?
No replies for that!
beldevere 22 October 2007
04:37:17 am
JS – not that I am a producer or dsitributor – kaash itna paisa hota
but see i dont buy this acceptance vs business theory in general. again i dont understand movie dynamics but essentially almost everything except people-people ties can be viewed from a business angle. If you view movie as a product then i subscribe to the theory that every product made has to have acceptance for it to be a good business proposition. so i dont just accept that trending is the only factor to indicate acceptance. i would take som’s point abt RDB’s budget to be about 10cr lesser – as a bigger pointer than the fact that RDB trended better.
there is a reason why Don made 50cr and Partner made 62 cr – they couldnt have done it without acceptance- me thinks
beldevere 22 October 2007
04:48:01 am
now it is possible that the audience for acceptance would differ between movies – so one movie may work ok in cities and rural areas whereas the other may work very well in cities but not at all in rural areas. So acceptance is a very subjective term….lol
Tango 22 October 2007
06:19:47 am
beldevere- Very good set of points and good conclusion”there is a reason why Don made 50cr and Partner made 62 cr – they couldnt have done it without acceptance- me thinks”
And Don had a good trending inspite of that the ‘trending’ theory went into cold storage ( with not really ahit!) for almost a year but resurfaces again, maybe because ‘Om Shanti Om’ is releasing with reportedly 200 prints worldwide and obviously week 1 to 2 will see an appreciable fall
And you are right makers are there to make money/profits , whether they can do so in 4 week or 10 , caring two hoots about our theories
Tango 22 October 2007
06:22:11 am
**2000**
Tango 22 October 2007
06:25:36 am
Congrats nithi_s
Your topic is in all-favourites and I scored the winning runs
jayshah 22 October 2007
06:44:21 am
‘And Don had a good trending inspite of that the ‘trending’ theory went into cold storage ( with not really ahit!) for almost a year but resurfaces again’
If that was directed at moi then your wrong. That’s always been my own conclusion and have said as much for long. People will confuse my aggressive stance on Guru’s box office and Don’s without actually seeing what I’ve said. Sameer knows how often we use to discuss Don and what I considered to be a good total to be a hit etc…whether my thoughts matter to you does not matter but would appreciate not putting words into my mouth. And we don’t need to have a thread everyday on ‘trending theory’ to make it a legit theory just like we don’t have a post everyday on distribution costs everyday to make that a legit one LOL ! Of course the Indian box office works in this way and I am peddling with current theories etc so please accept my apologises if it feels offensive to you for me to contest such parameters. I only do so to engage in what I think is a good alternative – not to just spite the fire on NG !
‘And you are right makers are there to make money/profits , whether they can do so in 4 week or 10 , caring two hoots about our theories’
Well this may well be the case. But I am sure K-Jo and Yash Chopra have both stated there disappointment at the box office performance of V-Z and KANK respectively. And such trending on KANK does chink K-Jo’s reputation a little, he is not superhuman at the box office as KANK showed !
Everyone wants to make money – but I hope some makers are also init for other things such as filmaking, passion and making good movies…money is only a reward for their endeavours and fact is they make a table profit anyway with all those distribution rights and stuff !
Tango 22 October 2007
06:59:47 am
Well if you consider yourself to be the main perpetuater/pall bearer of the ‘trending’ theory than you can take it upon yourself. It was a general viewpoint from my side , as far as I know because if I have to say anything to you I have said it directly ( like your print count goof up and CDI total reduction).
Yes we all know about your ” aggressive stance on Guru’s box office ” and it was questioned by many when you reduced CDI disregarding ur own methods.
jayshah 22 October 2007
07:01:58 am
Lol good one Tango, glad to see you know how to put me in my place !
som 22 October 2007
07:02:46 am
“Everyone wants to make money – but I hope some makers are also init for other things such as filmaking, passion and making good movies…money is only a reward for their endeavours and fact is they make a table profit anyway with all those distribution rights and stuff !”
very well said indeed.i guess film makers’ ultimate motive should be to satisfy as many as people through their movies.ofcourse i do agree that money matters, but it should not be the only criterian and at the cost of the paying public.i think the trending theory is very important thesedays just because of the massive initials the movies with the top stars are getting.the initial can only be attributed to the pre hype associated with the movie.it does not say anything about howmany and howmuch people have really liked the movie.here the trending theory comes and helps us to know how the movie has done in the latter weeks once the initial euphoria is gone.
Tango 22 October 2007
07:05:51 am
Sorry if you feel that way but I had specifically addressed at beldevere, you are welcome to your columns and methods.
Tango 22 October 2007
07:14:43 am
Som – I personally feel that even a Yash Raj , when they put in a HUGE investment ( say 20-25 cr) like to make good profits.
Yeah if its a Neel Aur Nikki ( which basically was a launch vehicle for Uday) or a Kabul Express they would not miind breaking even or loosing a crore.
Same goes for any maker.
Why is EROS talking in terms of 2000 prints for OSO or Sony abt 1000 prints for a newcomers film Saawraiya? Obviously they want to get into the safety zone as soon as they can.
They may go public and say ” Oh for us it was public acceptance that mattered not making huge profits” but do they really mean it ?
Karan had every right to be disapponted with KANK final total ( 47 or 50 whatever). But he expected a bigger success, given the heavy duty cast.
And taht is one of thevreasons why he is teading so catiously about his next Khan or My Nam Is Khan. A 60-65 cr for KANK and Khan would have been half way through in New York.
jeegs 22 October 2007
07:38:10 am
IIRc Karan wanted KANk to be biggest hit of 2006 and also to be the best film of 2006. he accepted this on directors special of KWK
Tango 22 October 2007
07:46:22 am
Thanks Jeegs – “IIRc Karan wanted KANk to be biggest hit of 2006 and also to be the best film of 2006. he accepted this on directors special of KWK”
Thats a good reminder.
satyam 22 October 2007
07:52:53 am
(a couple of older comments on the trending bit)
“Rajen: I would agree with your sense of an 80 crore grosser being a hit any which way you define it but I’d have one qualification. That scenario plays out today. Because as we saw with D2 the maximum initial is around 35 crores or so. D2 not only doubled this initial, it made an extra 15 crores. This shows by the way that Jay’s trending theory works perfectly. I remember that when KANK released some raised the point of the overall gross but D2 proves how even with the largest initial imaginable the gross can still be doubled and more (I actually have a theory on how Yashraj missed out on a 100 crore hit with this one!). But the point I’m trying to make is that the 80 crore figure isn’t an absolute one. If for example a film opened to 45 crores the 80 crore figure would not even have doubled the initial. It all depends on what kind of initial a film gets.
LRM is actually a far more profitable hit. It was made at a fraction of the D2 cost, it opened around 21 crores or so but then tripled this amount and more!
Similarly Krrish was a very expensive film. if you follow the 65-68 crore figure on this the 27-28 crore initial it almost tripled this, if you accept the IBOS 81 crore figure it made even more. But it was still only about as profitable as D2, actually less so given that D2 was much bigger overseas.
Don was similarly a rather expensive film (Farhan Akhtar always makes expensive films because he spends money on the technical side of things). Even if one accepts the BOI numbers here (which I don’t) it barely doubled the initial. So Don is not a proper hit by even this measure. Every other film, going only by BOI figures, since RDB did a lot more than this including Guru. On BOI’s own terms KANK had the worst trending and Don the poorest for a relatively successful film.”
“For the record I find it rather silly that the very common sense notion of ‘attrition rates’ is caricaturised in this fashion. For one it’s not a ‘theory’. It is used by people in the trade all over the Western world because it is pure common sense! The idea that somehow hit films become flops because this test is applied is plain ridiculous and frankly in bad faith at this point. Why? Because both Jay and I have explained this point enough times, at great length, with a great number of examples, and with all the nuance in the world. Attrition rates do NOT speak to the profitability of a film. Because a film that opens at 20-30 crores is going to be profitable unless it’s a total washout from that point on.
And doing it by pure distribution costs is at best archaic and worst badly misrepresentative. For example no one who saw KANK liked it. To then explain to the vast majority of the audience that this film was nonetheless a hit would seem amusing in the extreme to these very people. Much as MP was profitable too.
But actually I should be so harsh on the distributor’s cost position either. Because I do not believe at all that it’s all so hunky-dory for some of these poorly trending films. The problem here is again a lack of verifiable numbers. I’m not going to accept KANK as a proper hit just because someone starts suggesting that its distribution price was only 2-3 crores higher than UJ! or that Don had a pretty low budget and so on. This entire position gets ridiculous precisely because there aren’t verifiable numbers to be had.”
satyam 22 October 2007
07:56:05 am
And related older comments on the distribution aspect of things:
“Again as my responses above indicate there is no simple answer to your question. The producer will make a profit on OSO even before the film has released. However for the distributors and sub-distributors and exhibitors (depending on how the deal is structured) it is all a question of how much the film makes in that particular territory. A Krrish did superbly across the board in every kind of center. So this film whether one believes the gross to be 65-68 crores or 81 crores (IBOS) is nonetheless a superhit for everyone involved. But an RDB while an overall superhit in terms of the gross is not a big one for everyone involved. In the major metros this was super. In the small centers it was just ok. The guy in Meerut doesn’t particularly care if a film is a blockbuster in Bombay as long as he’s losing money. However because most of the gross is generated from major cities this fact can be obscured. On the other hand city-centric hits can get to 40 or 50 or even 60 crores (these days 50 is fast becoming the new 40!) but to get to D2 or Krrish levels the films in question have to do really well in small centers.
To get back to your question a film that costs say 40 crores might bring the producer 60 crores after he’s accounted for distributor rights, audio, satellite sales etc. He makes a profit on his investment. However down th food chain the film might be sold for 5 crores in Bombay, a crore in a smaller territory or even less than this and so on. So for Bombay that return for the distributor would only be calculated by him based on his 5 crore investment. The actual cost of the film would be irrelevant for him! the same goes for everyone else.
The sleight of hand that is often practised in box office reporting is to say things like ‘x film was made for 40 crores and grossed 60 crores, therefore it’s a superhit’.
And yes much like everything else in India this is another symptom of a system without accountability.
By the way any source that gives you totals on films, be it BOI or IBOS or anyone else is ultimately always calculating a total based on incomplete info. No trade journal in India has all the centers. Which is why no one provides totals. These have to be ‘calculated’ and there lies the rub!
I could open a site like BOI and IBOS tomorrow and put up there everything that I’m saying here. Just having such a site would automatically confer more credibility on me! But the central question would remain unanswered. What is BOI’s methodology? or that of IBOS? No one knows!”
“Yes good point on Yashraj. And while they made merry with D2 they had a very different experience with VZ and the latter proves your point. With a big budget film these days you really need some sort of historic grosser. Obviously this is always a low probability. But with a low to mid-budget film even 40-50 crores is great. Yashraj are certainly doing that. In fact when they have to pay a star enormously as they had to with Aamir, the film is otherwise made on a low budget to make up for the star salary. And it’s not just this. They also skim on the budget in other ways by not hiring the best technicians in the business and so on. This is why D2 actually looked cruder than Dhoom. Of course the interesting thing is that the less sophisticated visual idiom also makes the film that much more accessible across the board.
And again as you rightly point out because there are now satellite deals, overseas and the like producers find it easier to distribute the cost as opposed to directly pushing it onto the distributors et al. Having said the overseas rights have also increased greatly.
Ultimately what no one talks about is that on the majority of films someone or the other still loses money. The current system has become safer for the producer in many ways but sub-distributors or exhibitors still lose money. Again the multiplex owners are quite safe in this regard. This is why a Taran Adarsh or a Nahata always tend to qualify a film’s success or failure in their journals. What happens is the following:
a)A producer sells a film for let’s 4 crores to the Delhi-UP distributor.
b)The distributor inevitably releases the film for sub-distribution within his territory, if he has bought more than one territory to begin with he might give away a whole territory for the right price
c)But taking the above example if the territory generates say 6 crores and if the distributor has distributed the film totally on his own within that territory he makes a profit off it.
d)but if there is a subdistributor involved he or she might lose money even if the original distributor doesn’t
e)if it’s only one distributor the profit margin might be reduced if the film doesn’t do well everywhere in that territory
f)A producer can often make a table profit by recovering all his investment before the film has even released. however it is never considered good policy to not repay some of the profits back in the event that the film fails because you then have some very angry distributors or exhibitors to deal with. The old names in the industry and the smarter new ones always do this. This generates a great deal of good will. As does not selling a film at exorbitant rates to begin with
the point to all of this is that when one reads generalised reports in the media about a film being sold for 4 crores and generating 6 crores in a territory it doesn’t mean much. Total distribution rates don’t amount to anything unless one also knows how the various deals were structured.
In a textbook sense a film’s profitability is defined on the basis of the distribution cost but this cost is staggered in very different ways depending on the film. these are very complex transaction almost all of the time and one cannot say things like a 20 crore film made 30 crores or that a film which was distributed for 19 crores made 40 crores. Because a 40 crore grosser can nonetheless have distributors or sub-distributors or exhibitors who lose money on the film. Someone who incurs such losses won’t exactly be interested in the film’s total gross.
What was great last year was that most of those big hits did not really lose money anywhere. Guru this year was like that and of course Rathnam did not oversell the film anywhere. The small markets really made a killing on this one. Last year there were Krrish and D2 and LRM and Fanaa minimally. And of course Vivah. And then some others.
But this was not the graph for most of the Yashraj/Karan Johar SRK hits. And Johar has admitted as much about KKHH and K3G. This is why Yashraj are now making universal films. It’s safer this way but also simply more of a common sense decision. The market gets expanded and there’s a greater gross. If everyone’s on board you maximum could be 80 crores, if only the metros are on board it would be at the 50 crores or less.”
satyam 22 October 2007
08:02:25 am
In the final analysis ‘trending’ is not a theory. People who think this is the case haven’t understood what this ‘commensensical’ approach is at all. A film can generate enough hype to recover major costs in the first week or so but if it isn’t liked the film will not be considered a hit by the audience. Nor will it be considered one by the distributor or anyone else. Why? Because films have to run in theaters for a minimal period of time to ensure the right kind of profitability. A film has to do well relative to all kinds of costs. Otherwise someone in the ‘food chain’ is losing money. To say that a film was made for 40 crores and then made 50 crores and is therefore a hit is the worst kind of obfuscation and indicates either total ignorance about how these things work or deliberate misrepresentation.
On a related note I’ve also heard these tired stories before. When Yash Chopra or Karan Johar express disappointment with their films it’s only because they were expecting a Sholay (Tango suggested this was the case when Yash called VZ disappointing!) or because they wanted the biggest hit of the year (KANK). Please! Others should be credited with a little more intelligence!
som 22 October 2007
08:06:38 am
good set of points raised by Satyam here.
when a movie opens with a massive initial say 25-27 cr and then fails to make exact that much amount in the latter weeks is noway can be called as a Hit in any sense otherthan in technical/mathematical terms.it just speaks volumes of the movie not being completely accepted by the audience.that is why i believe a 50% trending minimum required for big films thesedays ifatall it will speak anything about howmany people did like the movie.anything more than 50% fall on an average in the subsequent weeks just dont make me to believe that the movie has been liked by a majority of audience.
som 22 October 2007
08:13:03 am
“A film can generate enough hype to recover major costs in the first week or so but if it isn’t liked the film will not be considered a hit by the audience”
that is how we have movies doing thesedays.a massive initial but then fades away quickly.look at this year Partner did enjoy an ok trending.it made most of the money in the first 2 weeks itself.HB again made the most in the first two weeks but then just lost its way completely.infact it has fallen more than 55% on an average in the subsequent weeks.barring CDI,GURU and NL ,no other big movies have trended well.
satyam 22 October 2007
08:26:14 am
Som: It’s not even just about this being a reflection on how well a film has been received by the audience. It is equally a reflection on the fact that most of these media sources are naively or purposely distorting the truth on these films even as a trade matter. A KANK or a Don simply did not make money for everyone concerned. It’s as simple as this. KANK and Krrish opened in similar range. The idea that KANK was just a hit because of the opening while Krrish was a blockbuster is total bunk. KANK was that sort of technical hit (even granting this) for very few concerned. These things are structured in very complex ways in the industry. The media (or some here) just throw out numbers on the budget (hardly ever confirmed), or distribution costs (hardly ever confirmed though evidently Don, KANK and UJ end up being in the same range!) and then ‘pair’ these with final grosses (leaving aside the questionable nature of many of these projections) and then call the films hits.
This has forever been my point here. A sleight of hand is used in all these debates and a lot of the readers get taken in. And of course there is a minimal lack of transparency also. People who quote and scan Nahata all the time did not do so when he had his final status report on Don or KANK or CC or KHNH. Guess why?! Of course you will see one on CDI!
So a real debate can begin when there’s minimal honesty and transparency across the board. This isn’t the case unfortunately.
beldevere 22 October 2007
08:34:36 am
So som, according to your theory guru and nl are more acceptable hits than partner or hey baby. I don’t accept that at all. If you say qualitatively they are better, that has some merit. Even there I am not sure. I think its sum of all factors and not just trending. Anyway different strokes for different folks.
som 22 October 2007
08:46:24 am
“So som, according to your theory guru and nl are more acceptable hits than partner or hey baby. I don’t accept that at all.”
from pure business proposition i still believe Partner and HB are ahead.but when it comes to people’s liking for the movie, i feel GURU and NL ahead of these movies.IMO the end gross will only say howmany people have seen the movie in the theatres but the trending will say howmuch people have accepted the movie and the positive feedback has let some more people to see the movie in the theatre.when a movie falls by more than 55% on an average after the initial hype is died, that does not make me the believe that the movie has been accepted by the audience.
som 22 October 2007
08:50:23 am
this is how i rate the movies those get a massive initial:
60% fall(consistenly):below average
50-60%:average-semi hit
40-50%:hit-superhit
below 40%:blockbuster+
beldevere 22 October 2007
08:59:35 am
Som
Sorry but I don’t agree at all with your view. Nl made what, 37 to 40 cr. How can a movie that made 15 cr less than hey baby and 25 cr less than partner be more acceptable to audiences then these 2. If you make a case for guru vs hey baby, that’s fair. Sorry you are putting too much value on trending vis a vis acceptance.
som 22 October 2007
09:39:41 am
beldevere: just because a movie did less in comparison to other movie does not mean that the movie is not accepted by the audience.in that sense RDB does not come anywhere near to Dhoom2 as the difference between the two movies was more than 30 cr.it does not make any sense to me.RDB started with 17 cr but then went on to do 51 cr at the end with around 35% fall everyweek.what does this indicate in terms of people’s participation and acceptance for the movie?it simply suggests that the movie has been loved by the majority of audience.the acceptance rate for RDB is more than that of a DHOOM 2 though the latter did more from pure business point of view.
now coming back to NL, its opening week was 15 cr but it made 37-38 cr at the end with a trending of 40% per week.it means majority of people who saw the movie liked it and that is why it kept on falling in that rate.but when you have a movie like HB, which did well in its 1st two weeks, but then started to fall at a rapid rate(55%+), it someextent says that half of the people who saw the movie has not liked the movie and that is why it could not sustain beyound the 2nd weeks or so.these is how HB has fallen over the weeks and i guess you will be able to judge the movie from people’s acceptance point of view:
2ndweek:46%
3rd week:61%(big fall)
4th week:55%
5 th week:69%(massive fall)
6 th week:49%
7 th week:55%
so in that rate the movie is practically out of the theatres by week 8.
rks 22 October 2007
09:57:47 am
IMO, as Jay stated in one of his post that apart from % drop, Initial and final gross do matter.
In terms of trending Vivah should be super blockbuster but it did 40cr Nett, which is half of D2. The people who liked it liked it a lot and probably saw it 5 times (and single screen audience)but there are many people (read city people) who just didn’t get excited to go to cinema hall. Was the movie accepted, yes in its intended(target) audience.
beldevere 22 October 2007
10:06:36 am
But som that’s exactly the point. % drop is one way of measuring acceptability but not the only way. What makes you think d2 was not accepted. It is the biggest hit in Indian cinema.
Sambaba 22 October 2007
10:16:20 am
Want to comment in this thread but I know if I start it, it’ll turn into a long discussions which I’m not interested, so avoiding it. Carry on guyz!!!
satyam 22 October 2007
10:18:18 am
Beldevere: You are ignoring something very obvious here — the base audience for each film. NL opened around 14-15 crores, did less than 35 crores in my opinion (the media decided it was going to celebrate it as a hit, whereas TRP which in my view did 40 crores or so was treated as a flop, forget this even Akshay Kumar earlier BB which did more than NL was treated as a disappointment) but in any case was good on trending. However the base audience here was always a small one compared to say a Krrish.
In fact it is one of the strengths of looking at trending (as everyone does the world over) that the ‘base’ is always accounted for. So again NL was a hit on trending but not enough people were interested in the film to begin with to give it a 20 crore initial. On the other hand far more people were interested in Heyy babyy to begin with but the ‘base’ here liked the film than did the ‘base’ with NL.
Initials vary depending on how big the ‘base’ is for a star, there are other factors like co-stars, banner, subject and so on. It is never fair to compare an RDB with a D2 for example because the latter is a mass market product, RDB isn’t. Much as the Departed was a huge hit but it only ended up with 135m or so. The trending though was phenomenal because the film started around 27m. One cannot compare this with Spidey 3! For one Spidey 3 didn’t have the same trending but more than this Spidey 3 simply did not have the same audience base.
Even top stars do not attract the same initial in every kind of project. Much as Akshay’s initial in the comedies is very different from the same in the NL/JeM kind of project (Bhool Bhulaiya should have minimally done the Heyy Babyy deal, that it didn’t after a good start implies that the film started falling after the weekend).
To compare films as varied as Guru or D2 or RDB or Krrish or LRM or Vivah makes no sense unless one accounts for these factors. Vivah was a single screen or small town blockbuster. But the fact remains that 40 crores was the very limit here since the multiplexes weren’t on board.
So yes, Partner was not liked by as many people as CDI or Guru or RDB. If it had it would have minimally done a LRM or maybe more than this.
By the way this is also basic business logic. A new product is counted a success or a failure based on what the target audience is. Success/failure is then measured against this. Or to take another example Burger King has a lesser share of the market than McDonald’s because of people who eat burgers the latter seems to be more of a preference than the former. We can’t include people who do not eat burgers under any circumstances! Similarly the sales of a Benz E Class cannot be measured against those of a Civic! The buyer ‘base’ is different in each case.
The same holds for cinema and this is how it’s done in any sophisticated industry, which is to say an industry with the tools to measure films using the right metrics. In India we don’t have this so far. All kinds of films are simply lumped together. For example fantasy films attract a huge share of the child audience. But it’s the Disney principle here, these kids have to go accompanied to the theaters. Therefore Krrish has an advantage right away over a film like RDB much as Disney always has a ‘built-in’ advantage.
Trending accounts for the ‘base’ at all times. Why enough people were not interested in NL to begin with as opposed to BB is a different matter. But of those who saw the film NL was liked more than BB. A lower ‘base’ number might be an index on stardom, the banner or what have you. It is not however an index on a film being liked or not. When the first D2 preview came on I was certain that this film would break all initials prior to it. Why? Everyone seemed interested. It got a universal audience, hence the largest possible (at the time) base. This was because the Dhoom franchise was big by that time, it was a perfect storm of ‘hot’ stars, it was the Yashraj banner at the end of an excellent year and so on. But this could hardly be held against an RDB. For the RDB kind of subject ‘everyone’ will never be interested.
Street Pharmacist 22 October 2007
10:19:32 am
Akshayshah “And the “F” word from Streets mouth is expected, he has a limited vocabulary which starts and finishes with the “F” word:-) And I must add, in this case Sherlyn Chopra’s interview itself is more “offensive” than anything commented on my NGer’s!:-)”
And idiot has spoken again… Didn’t we agree on not making comment to/on each other? The diot couldn’t control himself for a single day.
And leaving aside your idiotic comments in the first part of your comment, how exactly was Sherlyn’s interview all that offensive? forget about being “more offensive than anything commented on NGers”
satyam 22 October 2007
10:22:44 am
D2 is the biggest absolute grosser of Hindi cinema. This does not make it the biggest ‘hit’ nor even the biggest grosser when one factors in inflation, multiplex spread and so on. And incidentally D2 had great trending. It started off around 32-35 crores and went upto 85 crores. It more than doubled its initial by a significant margin. This was true for Krrish, for LRM, for Guru, for CDI and so on. This wasn’t true for KANK or Don or VZ or BB or Heyy Babyy.
Finally let’s not forget something else. The opportunity cost of producing a D2 like film or a Spidey 3 is far greater (in every sense) than producing a LRM or a Departed. This is always factored into the ‘costs’ all around as a basic principle of economics. This is why blockbusters are not usually the most profitable films around unless these do extraordinarily well.
Street Pharmacist 22 October 2007
10:23:26 am
Satyam “Partner was not liked by as many people as CDI or Guru… ”
Oh well.. ofcourse.. if one goes by non-Ibos numbers that claim is as faulty as the next Akshay shah comment on this thread.
Tango 22 October 2007
10:24:32 am
Akshay kumar has opted out of Bachchans tour and so he has fallen out of favour, sohis movie collections are going to be discredit.
But then what if Saif becaomes a threat to Abhishek tomorrow? He already is as far as Yash Raj are concerned
Tango 22 October 2007
10:26:06 am
**discredited**
Street Pharmacist 22 October 2007
10:26:35 am
and once again.. Satyam tries to present a fulty thesis on false facts.
Guru was the type of hit that Kriish, LRM, D2 was.. and that Don, VZ and BB weren’t. If teh very basis of your claim be so off.. what can one say about teh rest of your argument.
rks 22 October 2007
10:26:43 am
Sambaba:”Want to comment in this thread but I know if I start it, it’ll turn into a long discussions ”
Just put your thoughts, you don’t need to defend them.
rks 22 October 2007
10:52:08 am
Satyam:”A lower ‘base’ number might be an index on stardom, the banner or what have you. It is not however an index on a film being liked or not.”
Agree completely. Add genre to that.
Tango 22 October 2007
10:53:14 am
rks- Ravan dehan to kal kar diya, phir bhi kuch bach gaye lagta hai
Waise bhi kuch chetron mein Ravan ki pooja hoti hai, udhar se hi bach nikla hoga, sooparkhan ke saath
jayshah 22 October 2007
10:55:08 am
:”Want to comment in this thread but I know if I start it, it’ll turn into a long discussions ”
Sambaba its something I’ve missed….a long menaing conversation that goes round in circles !
jayshah 22 October 2007
10:56:09 am
* a long meaningless conversation *
Tango 22 October 2007
11:22:14 am
Unfortunately trending means zilch in the real world.
For the Industry, Bhool Bhuliyaa and Laaga chunari Mein Daag released with the same number of 45 prints, and BB still leads LCMD by a substantial amount. And that where LCMD is supposed to have done the best
Tango 22 October 2007
11:25:07 am
And another example of the real world
http://www.telegraphindia.com/.....456821.asp
Here is the real acceptance of CDI & Guru, 79,6% and 13 %
All the discussions here make no difference.
Tango 22 October 2007
11:35:23 am
BB leads LCMD by asmall amount of around 79-80 thousand $ upto the second weekend even UK, let us not even talk about US and India
rks 22 October 2007
11:41:54 am
Tango: Aap mood mei hai aaj
Saw BB and first 45 minutes of LCMD. BB was just OK, LCMD was decent except for some cliched dialogues.
Tango 22 October 2007
11:48:57 am
rks- “Tango: Aap mood mei hai aaj Saw BB and first 45 minutes of LCMD. BB was just OK, LCMD was decent except for some cliched dialogues.”
Two reasons-
1)Bhai aaj mood achcha nahi hai , bechare Shahid Kapoor ki roti shakal yaad aa rahi hai.
2) They are going to demolish the gole market (in Delhi) and make a mall
NyKavi 22 October 2007
12:15:12 pm
Yeh thread janaani izzat se shuru hua tha, lekin BO keechud ke cheeton ne isko be-aabroo kar diya hai. So chaliye, my take on BO starpower sun lijiye:
I think SRK himself has recently said that there is not much validity to a pyramid starsystem in Bwood anymore. He said, he is the last superstar which I agree with.
In purely financial terms, if you have 5 guys delivering 50cr hits instead of just 1, does it mean that the original 1 is no longer a superstar and that the other 4 have caught up with him OR does it mean that there actually is more money chasing quality projects which are all ending up with a 100% ROI?
When SRK ruled until 2005, there really was a shortage of $s. If there were $10 to invest, SRK wud get 5, and the rest of the stars wud get 5. SRK converted 5 to 10, the other 5 were converted to possibly 7.5.
Now there are $50 to spend. SRK with his time can only still spend $5, so where does the other $45 go to? Obviously it goes into giving other stars $5 each into generating quality products which too have a chance of making 100% ROI.
In this scenario, does a #1,#2,#3 etc system even work anymore? The top-down system has given away to a flattened system. As long as a script has quality content/theme, a bwood producer today can pick from an array of star choices to ride the horse. Cause the producer knows that with an abundance of $s, he will end up making the product which he envisioned and it will be succesful at the BO. That was not a case a few years ago.
As it stands today, a quality script can easily be made with any of these guys: SRK,Aamir,Sallu,AkshayK,Saif,HR,JrB. Any of them have the requisite skills to pull a movie, as long as the movie is good enough for a dekko.
NyKavi 22 October 2007
12:33:04 pm
And SRK is actually being the smartest of the pack. He knows that he cant lay his hands on the extra $40 that have come into the industry just by being an actor or even a producer. So he is going to open a studio and make sure that he at least makes another 10 out of those 40! True Businessman.
Ravi 22 October 2007
12:39:22 pm
Very well said Nykavi.
rockstar the dumb 22 October 2007
12:47:20 pm
brilliantly put nykavi today we are more in hollywood mould with all the 7 major saleable star can spring a surprise anytime depending on script
rockstar the dumb 22 October 2007
12:50:12 pm
on ur assumption on business aspect again it is catching very fast on all major stars ,only akshay does not have a production house now out of major stars
satyam 22 October 2007
01:09:59 pm
All those who think that discussions on NG are somehow not part of ‘reality’ or not part of the ‘real world’ are engaging in a daily contradiction in terms by participating on NG! Leaving aside the fact that such folks somehow claim a ‘copyright’ on ‘reality’, leaving aside the fact that anything that does not suit a certain propagandistic narrative is not part of the ‘real world’, one simply wonders how such people can find it in their hearts to be a part of such ‘unreality’ day after day…
rks 22 October 2007
01:12:08 pm
tango:
I saw Shahid on Nach Baliye and Jhalak Dikhla Ja; And he was doing OK. Infact Kareena was little awkward on Nach Baliye.
Here is some mid-day take.
I think generally people are negative towards Kareena for breaking up with Shahid and hooking up with Saif in no time.
Kisi din CP bhi thod kar Bada market bana diyaa jaayegaa.
satyam 22 October 2007
01:31:01 pm
Nykavi: I think that in many ways we might be seeing a Hollywood system emerging in India (as in so many other respects) where there is a top bracket of stars but not necessarily a top star within this bracket.
On your specific point I think that a star is big enough only to the extent of what the competition does. When Bachchan was at his peak it was famously said of him that he was everything from 1-10 or that he was the one man industry (Truffaut’s phrase) and so on. In such a scenario Bachchan’s achievements became that much more unique. It is one thing if a star has a 50 crore grosser and no one manages anything more than 30 crores but quite another if everyone else is also doing the same. So stardom is also about what the competition is doing.
SRK was once unchallenged in the metros. But in recent years he’s either not kept up with the competition at all or not surpassed it. For example a CDI grossed with tax exemptions what RDB would more or less have grossed without these in today’s money. Even if one removed the exemptions issue CDI is clearly not ahead of RDB. Similarly Krrish or LRM or D2 made huge amounts 12-18 months ago. This year Partner was a big one (though not as big as those).
If SRK has a big one in OSO he will have had a great year along with Akshay Kumar but he still wouldn’t have been ahead of say Hrithik. There certainly cannot be a ‘top star by default’. In other words superstars when they’re on top have to keep proving it every year. They always have to be ahead of the competition or else they’re only among peers. part of a top bracket for sure but not unchallenged.
I recently posited a top bracket which excluded Salman and Saif. I still stick to it (interestingly this was exactly Farah Khan’s idea when she wanted Hrithik and Aamir to show up for the awards along with Akshay, Abhishek, SRK in OSO!) for a variety of reasons.
Obviously any such discussion is always a fluid one and dependent on what happens each year. Hrithik had a super ‘06, he had nothing in ‘07, now JA has generated a lot of buzz and it will be his only ‘08 release. A success here gives him the best claim to the top spot. A failure here is an important setback. Yet even with this scenario he would still be among the very top stars because his strength genres would be untouched. Stars fail most spectacularly when they fail in their strongest genres.
Abhishek had a huge Guru moment and it could have been very much his year but JBJ was totally rejected. Now he has to do it with Sarkar and Drona next year. Important successes in both put him near the top of the bracket. Conversely a major failure in even one here, especially Drona, has huge consequences.
SRK had a genre failure in KANK, did decently with Don, spectacularly well with CDI, OSO remains to be seen. And yet this is his best year since ‘04! In ‘05 he had a flop in Paheli and he didn’t have a top 5 grosser in ‘06 despite two major releases.
Aamir is again sitting pretty. Conceivably he’s lost some of the post RDB/Fanaa momentum because of no releases but his prestige also depends on his not being part of any race as such. TZP is still a very small film and I don’t think this will affect him much even if it fails. Gajini is of course the big one next year.
Akshay has had a super year, is good as gold in his comedies and now even has the prestige projects to boot.
Next year is very interesting as it has all the top stars in major projects. Hrithik has JA, Abhishek has Sarkar and Drona, Aamir has Gajni, Akshay has his biggest project in Tashan and Made in China (and of course the comedies), SRK will probably have Robot. Within this group Hrithik suffers the least with a flop as JA isn’t his strength genre and is moreover not a strength genre for any star! The stakes are highest for Abhishek here (gains and losses highest), also high for Aamir since this is his major project at the moment (though he put MP behind him and has been around for ages). If JA becomes a huge failure Hrithik does get adversely affected because an important star cannot have a very significant failure, otherwise he should be ok even with a decent showing here. Akshay seems to be sitting pretty. But Tashan would have to be a big one for him.
SRK is now moving away from his strength genre in most of his productions. Every film therefore becomes important because in the event of a flop there isn’t a genre to lean on. In some ways Abhishek also does not have this since irrespective of hit or flop he does not really repeat himself very much. The Sarkar kind of deal should be a yearly thing for him.
But again this is a Hollywood paradigm in play. Any top star can get a certain initial and gross with some intelligence. Of this group I think the pressure is greatest on Abhishek. Because he needs some very big moments next year. Next it’s also on SRK because he needs to keep proving that he belongs with the competition in terms of gross, buzz and so on even if he cannot get ahead in this sense.
satyam 22 October 2007
01:43:56 pm
But yes I continue to predict a bear market for SRK. Because I don’t see him setting the terms of the debate anymore. This year even with CDI is no different in that sense. With CDI SRK ‘proves’ that he can keep up with the popularity and/or acclaim of a RDB or a Guru or what have you (deservedly or not is another matter, I am addressing the media reception here).
In a weird sense even Akshay has defined the debate this year in some ways. He’s done the old school thing by having multiple masala releases that are all successful. He doesn’t get acclaim or any such thing but with so much success it becomes impossible to ignore him. And he’s doing it on his terms. Of course he’s had the ‘prestige’ problem but Tashan and Made in China should address that.
Incidentally one can see the media warming up as well. He is regularly compared to SRK and so on, regularly being considered the top star etc. So he really has stolen up on everyone.
Again it’s a question of where every star begins. SRK ‘loses’ in a way even when he does very well as he is only one among equals. But some of the other stars there gain even by just being equals as they were not the ‘top guns’ all these years.
Incidentally this is reflected in first day showings as well. Both Don (over the weekend) and CDI opened poorer than expected. And this was universally accepted in a media that is otherwise pro-SRK. OSO should of course have a fabulous opening but it has been shaky for SRK of late. Again the media did not actually give him as much credit as actor for CDI as one might have expected. let alone Guru, there wasn’t even the RDB performance buzz here. He might still get the awards for CDI (in another farce!) but I do see a softening of his support in the media. Why? Because there are now other important stars as well.
beldevere 22 October 2007
08:15:33 pm
Nykavi
Need to see more comments like yours in ng. At least offers a different perspective to say the least.
Satyam, sorry but I believe you missed the point. We are not necessarily talking about bo classifications but acceptance. So if a film has a smaller base audience, one can argue that its acceptance level is automatically lower. Now it may find more acceptance with that base but that doesn’t make it a more acceptable film. Anyway, we have made our points so let’s move on to the next topic.
Tango 22 October 2007
08:38:34 pm
Very nice points Beldevere because here is how real world evaluates the greatness of both Guru and Chak De! India
http://www.telegraphindia.com/.....456821.asp
79.6 % for CDI and 13 % for Guru.
Also, during the FFI meeting for Oscar nominations well know how prominantly Guru featured in the discussions as compared to Eklavya, CDI and Dharam.
Sunny 25 October 2007
04:46:05 am
“It is one thing if a star has a 50 crore grosser and no one manages anything more than 30 crores but quite another if everyone else is also doing the same. So stardom is also about what the competition is doing.”
Sataym–that’s exactly what I had touched upon in my long comment, which you chose to ignore… again
. Here it is….again
>
Comment at your convenience, but please.. do reply
Sunny 25 October 2007
04:47:14 am
hain!!..where did it go..?Anyway..
“Let’s journey back sometime ago; mid-late eighties and early nineties..Anil Kapoor, Sanjay Dutt, Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Sunny Deol…all big stars giving competition to Amitabh. Anil Kapoor at that time,was in fact doing exactly what Hritik has been doing to SRK post 2001. He was doing good films, getting successes as well garnering critical acclaim. Saaheb, Yudh, Meri Jung in 85–Chameli Ki Shaadi, Jaanbaaz, Karma(year’s biggest grosser) in 86– Mr. India in 87–Tezaab in 88(which was the year’s biggest grosser again, got best Actor filmfare even though Amitabh in Shahenshah was also nominated!!)–Raam Lakhan in 89(year’s second biggest grosser, what can you expect when you have the historical MPK released the same year), the others were doing their bit too, but I’m sure everybody knows that. I just used Anil Kapoor as he was the only one who was considered a ’serious’ threat to Amitabh during his reign..So what does this prove? Does it prove that Amitabh Bachhan was the first among equals at this point??? That he had to share that elite class with Sanjay Dutt, Salman Khan, Aamir Khan. NO WAY! Similarly the case with SRK..he was the biggest box office force in bollywood till 2005( I don’t really see how that has changed now though,KANK and DON make this case rather strong if one wishes to acknowledge it, and now esp. after CDI and OSO in the pipeline),he’s only one short of equalling Dilip Kumar’s record 7 Filmfare best actors. And Akshay who has finally found superstardom after 17 years! in the industry or Abhishek Bachhan!!! who had 15 flops till Dhoom came, gave a couple of hits in between, gave a good performance in Guru(and a hit) followed by the debacle UJ and JBJ get the privilege of being ‘equals’ in a league which has SRK,Salman(on a purely fan following basis)and Aamir(yes, him I can definitely see him as an equal on many accounts),even Hritik has a valid shot at this league now, though still marginally below the achievements of SRK or Aamir. I just don’t understand this theory at all. If one believes that SRK is first among equals in the company of Akshay or Abhishek then one must not make ‘god’-ly claims about the Big B after 85.”
Sunny 25 October 2007
04:48:05 am
NyKavi–superb set of thoughts, really superb!
Sunny 25 October 2007
04:52:08 am
And yes, he truly will remain the last Superstar of Indian cinema. I don’t really see such kinda dominance from any star/actor with the way Bollywood has been shaping up the last couple of years.
Sunny 25 October 2007
05:05:59 am
“So if a film has a smaller base audience, one can argue that its acceptance level is automatically lower. Now it may find more acceptance with that base but that doesn’t make it a more acceptable film. Anyway, we have made our points so let’s move on to the next topic.”
beldevere–you have summarized everything perfectly with that comment. I think I understand what Som and Satyam are trying to say…let’s say 10 people watched film X and 3 people watched film Y. Assume that of the 10 people who watched X, 6 liked it, 3 liked it very much and 1 thought it was just ok.Whereas all the 3 people who watched Y thought it was brilliant. And that automatically makes Y the more accepted film..yeah?(Satyam/Som–correct me if I’ve got it wrong). But then that would make Gandhi My Father or probably Bheja Fry the most accepted movie of the year..wouldn’t it? Yes, this theory does hold true is some cases, and even in the cases where it holds true..there are several other factors which demand consideration too. If you compare an LRM with a CDI then it’s ok. If you compare a D2 with Krrish or JBJ(0r even the upcoming OSO) then it’s ok but how can you compare a Heyy Baby or Partner with RDB,LRM or CDI. That’s just unfair…both those films(I didn’t like Heyy Baby though) were as accepted as they could have been.
Sunny 25 October 2007
05:12:22 am
…and accepted or rejected, that’s none of my concern…but the kinda business Don did considering the competition, the media backlash and the bourgeois resentment should be ‘commendable’ in anybody’s books.
Elvis 25 October 2007
05:27:43 am
I think one thing that SRK fans just dont get and probably wont ever get (may be thats why they are SRK fans to begin with) is that moment they try to drag AB into the argument,they loose the argument.It is as simple as that.
Comparisions are valid between creatures of the same class-like an ant and a mosquito.Dont try to drag an elephant into the discussion.
shetty 25 October 2007
05:38:54 am
(may be thats why they are SRK fans to begin with)
LOL
jayshah 25 October 2007
05:45:22 am
‘Comparisions are valid between creatures of the same class-like an ant and a mosquito.Dont try to drag an elephant into the discussion.’
Morning Elvis ! Not fair to compare a mosquito to SRK and an elephant to Big B. But agree….size matters.
Elvis 25 October 2007
05:50:05 am
Jay,
Not fair to mosquito??
Ofcourse size matters.The myth that it doesnt has been perpetuated by inadequate individuals.
Sunny 25 October 2007
05:52:41 am
Elvis: Bravo! what an argument
Pardon my ignorance…but…how old did you say you were?
jayshah 25 October 2007
05:54:13 am
‘Not fair to mosquito??’
I think if Big B is an elephant than SRK is like a horse. Be fair Elvis. Besides Mosquitos bite and irritate. Or maybe this was your point !
Elvis 25 October 2007
05:55:59 am
Sunny,
Am young enough to beat the shit out of anybody who dares to disagree but old enough to know better.
Sunny 25 October 2007
05:56:14 am
‘as simple as that’…this might hold true in la-la land where debating logic doesn’t exist, but not on NG I hope. And once again…bravo! When everything else fails a ’simple as that’ or ‘period’ is the best weapon…nice
Sunny 25 October 2007
05:59:11 am
Elvis–Hilarious! pal…at first I thought I’ll only see sarcarsm and extreme statements coming from you, but now I see a hint of sense of humor too. Well done
Elvis 25 October 2007
05:59:24 am
Jay,
SRK comparisions to a horse might be inaccurate.With all these talks of his six-pack,I heard rumors that people were saying,he has a six pack of dynamite with a two inch fuse.
PS. SRK fans,this is just a joke.
shetty 25 October 2007
05:59:28 am
“but…how old did you say you were”
Pelvis has seen Dev Anand’s struggling days
shetty 25 October 2007
05:59:38 am
“but…how old did you say you were”
Pelvis has seen Dev Anand’s struggling days
beldevere 25 October 2007
06:02:29 am
I wonder if Elvis has heard the story of an ant killing an elephant.as far as beating up is concerned….yawn. Next topic please
Sunny 25 October 2007
06:03:47 am
Now what Jayshah said is something no one will have a problem agreeing to. And to each his own anyway, but it’s better to stay away from any kind of intellectual arrogance and make utterly ridiculous statement like these “may be thats why they are SRK fans to begin with”…not only does it give away every credibility you have, it’s downright childish.
FloydRulez 25 October 2007
06:05:31 am
“he has a six pack of dynamite with a two inch fuse.”
“Pelvis has seen Dev Anand’s struggling days”
LOL
Sunny 25 October 2007
06:05:38 am
beldevere–I wish I was more like you and could just ‘yawn’(coz that’s what it really deserves)…damn!! my stubborn nature
Sunny 25 October 2007
06:07:09 am
shetyy–you really are good at one liners pal
Elvis 25 October 2007
06:11:17 am
Chalo guys,
Subah subah mein Sunny baba ko pareshan kiya.Chill dude, dont take it so seriosuly.
Shetty,
I am not saying this just because you are my buzurg but you rock.
shetty 25 October 2007
06:11:27 am
Thanks.
And sorry for y’day statement Bro.
You are one of the few nice guys left in NG (RKS, Hal, Arun & Som are others)
Dil pe mat le yaar…
Sunny 25 October 2007
06:11:52 am
BTW..at the rate it’s going..I’m sure this thread will cross the 400 comment barrier pretty soon..LOL.
shetty 25 October 2007
06:13:28 am
“I am not saying this just because you are my buzurg”
Buzurg gayee faridabad navratna tel lene…
Sunny 25 October 2007
06:14:17 am
shetty–dil pe liya hota to aisa nahi bola hota yaar
, no worries at all.
Elvis–now that you said it, I won’t
cheers!
shetty 25 October 2007
06:15:04 am
Pelvis is a member in NG even before my parents thought of me
Tango 25 October 2007
06:16:31 am
Sunny, Shetty ke sense of humour se bach ke rehna, at times his one liners are a killer
Elvis 25 October 2007
06:16:47 am
Shetty,
You are probably not even born yet,are you?
jayshah 25 October 2007
06:17:48 am
Lara will cry soon
Sunny 25 October 2007
06:19:00 am
LMAO!!….ab hum chalte hain…bye guys. And shetyy bhai, thanks for the laughs again.
Sunny 25 October 2007
06:19:49 am
I shall tread carefully Tango bhai
shetty 25 October 2007
06:22:37 am
“he has a six pack of dynamite with a two inch fuse.”
Pelvis, Uou are not going to blow the fuse rite? are you??
Elvis 25 October 2007
06:24:26 am
Shetty,
Vomitted my breakfast over a colleagues computer!
shetty 25 October 2007
06:25:44 am
Thanks Tango bhaiyya
Kahan aap aur kahan main.
Sirji has logged in. Time to move out bye guyz
Tango 25 October 2007
06:42:47 am
Hi Shetty main bhi chala today pure vegetarian ( shudh shakahari) feast is in store for me ( slurp), ek shaadi mein
Waise bhi aaj Elvis bhai kuch naaraz se dikh rahe hain, isi liye maine bhi koi mazaaq nahi kiya unse.
satyam 25 October 2007
07:16:23 am
Sunny: A few quick points here:
1)The Bachchan/SRK analogy is the wrong one to begin with. This is the principle error that is often made over here. SRK was always light years away from Bachchan in terms of box office magnitude. Leaving aside a direct comparison SRK never established that kind of gap with his competitors. This has precisely been my point forever. Leaving aside Yashraj/Dharma SRK’s record is mediocre and even less than this through the 90s.
2)Bachchan’s stardom precisely started becoming questionable after the ‘88 period when he was finding it increasingly hard to live up to his past standards. Shahenshah even as a ‘disappointment’ was still the year’s second biggest grosser. Aaj ka arjun was the second or third biggest grosser in ‘90. Hum in ‘91 was the year’s biggest and so on. He still had the biggest initial in the business. But he also had many films that grossed well but couldn’t keep up with the history. This is why the questions started popping up. Actually Bachchan did not have any serious competition at this point. The Anil Kapoor thing was in many ways a Boney Kapoor/media sponsored fake event. Anil Kapoor was doing well for sure and the double bill of Tezaab/Ram Lakhan did it for him (even if Madhuri ran away with the former) but subsequently some of his average/above average films were billed as ‘hits’. Rakhwala being a classic example. In terms of gross he had following those two successes one top 10 grosser in ‘90 with Kishen Kanhaiya which came it at #7, none in ‘91, the top grosser in ‘92 with Beta (where again Madhuri stole the show and the film was famously dubbed Beti!), after this it was over form him anyway as he had at one point 13-15 flops in a row. He was just wiped out.
Sunny reinvented himself with Ghayal in 1990, his career had been stagnating before this, and it more or less stagnated after this. To get his next big hit you have to go to Border in ‘97 (not counting Darr)! Dutt had a great year in ‘91 with Saajan/Sadak, then a couple of years later with Khalnayak, after this he never did anything remotely comparable in terms of success until recently and of course his prison problems were part of the deal.
Bachchan had definitely lost more than a step or two during this period but there wasn’t any consistent opposition either. many of his so called ‘flops’ during this period still grossed as much or more as films like Rakhwala and so on. But the pressure on him was fair since his bar was much higher.
Between ‘86 and ‘88 Bachchan formally left the industry. This is very different from a star being around and not having releases. Just before this though he was good as gold. Aakhree Raasta in ‘86 made as much as Karma though by Bachchan standards the former didn’t seem extraordinary. In ‘85 Mard made a lot more than Karma. Till ‘86 Bachchan was untouchable no matter which way one splits up the numbers. ‘88-’92 he still had verifiably the biggest initial and the opposition was never serious at any point. Just before he left for a 5 year sabbatical in ‘92 Khuda Gawah got a mind-blowing initial which enabled it to become the 4th highest grosser that year despite a poor follow through. Hum generated the kind of hysteria in ‘91 which hadn’t been seen for ages before this. Agneepath grossed as much as Kishen Kanhaiya in ‘90 despite being dubbed a ‘flop’ and Aaj ka Arjun grossed a lot more (was second only to Dil and Ghayal). The point is that this was still very impressive for a star who had been around for ages though he was clearly slowing down.
With SRK it’s very different. I find his ‘dominance’ itself questionable for reasons I’ve outlined many times before. But leaving this aside since 2000 Hrithik has had the top grosser of the year everytime he’s done a filmkraft film. Last year of course he also had D2. None of SRK’s hits post-2000, with the exception of K3G (which also had half the industry!) have been able to keep up with hrithik’s biggest hits. In ‘05 SRK couldn’t get a top 5 grosser despite two major releases. THis year he has OSO and CDI, the latter is a major grosser, the former will also be one in all probability, but Hrithik or Aamir do not have major projects this year. Abhishek did with Guru and JBJ, the former didn’t do worse than CDI if one factors in tax exemptions for the latter, certainly wouldn’t have been much behind. JBJ was of course a flop but potentially could have been one of the huge grossers of the year. Leaving this aside CDI also didn’t do more than RDB (i.e. in today’s money). Will OSO do more than what Fanaa did without Gujarat, let alone what Krrish or D2 did remains to be seen. Akshay Kumar didn’t match the CDI gross but he’s had a string of hits and this counts for something.
So it’s a question of what looks possible om paper in addition to what actually happens. With Bachchan you had after ‘88 underperformers that did quite well with respect to the opposition in many cases. The bona fide hits were still among the top grossers. But Bachchan was slowing down since he was finding it increasingly harder to ‘match’ the opposition despite garnering the biggest initials. With SRK this has verifiably been the case since late ‘04. VZ trended poorly, Swades flopped, Paheli flopped (plus it was SRK’s only release that year), KANK trended poorly, Don did decently, neither film grossed as much as Fanaa, RDB, LRM, Krrish, D2. This year of course he will have two big ones in all probability. But as I said Bachchan had such moments post-’88, Rajesh Khanna had a better ‘74 than a post-Zanjeer Bachchan, he had three superhits! Stars don’t just disappear, they slow down. And SRK is finding it harder to come up with projects and keep up. Why? Because many of the good projects are also distributed among his rivals. This doesn’t happen when a star is really on top. He gets the pick! Still with CDI and potentially OSO being major successes SRK would be in a more comfortable position for the first time in 3 years or so. The point however is that he still cannot outinitial or outgross the competition.
In sum the same rule applies to Bachchan despite the fact that there is otherwise no comparison between Bachchan and SRK in any sense. He was fairly questioned in the post-Shahenshah period. However the opposition was never good enough. Anil Kapoor was good for a few years, then wilted, even when he was good he could never match the Bachchan initial (another factoid here, Toofan, a Bachchan ‘flop’ in ‘89 did a little less than Yash Chopra’s superhit Chandni the same year!), Dutt was good for another couple of years later, Aamir had started emerging in an important way and so on, Bachchan of course left for 5 years in ‘92. Between ‘86 and ‘97 Bachchan was formally out of the game for 7 of those years! These hurt him frankly in some ways. Stars can’t just take off, they start aging. And so on.
To repeat a ‘top star’ has to outinitial his rivals and/or outgross them. SRK doesn’t always need to get the biggest grossers but he should be able to prove his dominance with lesser grossers or flops as Bachchan did with his. And of course when Bachchan was SRK’s age it was the early 80s and he was the ‘one man industry’! When Bachchan started slowing down he 4-5 years older than SRK is today and SRK has been having problems for at least a couple of years.
One has to look at the long term trending. SRK has even lost his dominance in the overseas markets forget anything else!
This does not mean that he won’t have hits or even big hits. It is not only the top star who has these. Other stars in an industry also have them! The bar for the top star is much higher.
Leaving aside what’s happening today I consider SRK’s peak achievements also questionable to the extent that I simply find media hyperbolic on this matter and advancing claims unsupported by the evidence.
By the way it’s not just about him. I apply the same standards to his rivals as well. Which is why my analysis keeps changing on these matters. Having said that I haven’t seen anything so far that greatly changes my perspective on SRK’s future.
satyam 25 October 2007
07:23:33 am
On your other point you have more or less understood me well. I don’t believe Bheja Fry is a valid example within the context as one must compare like for like. Bheja Fry isn’t a mainstream film. Also I think that it’s a fallacy to suggest that everyone liked Gandhi My Father (I think Beldevere made this point). There were many critics who didn’t let alone audiences! Hype on the web does not mean that everyone likes a film. EHT for example made about 5 crores! Clearly no one much liked it.
Within the mainstream though one has to make allowance for films that simply attract more audience interest than others as a matter of genre or subject. Similarly one must credit films that have huge grosses despite not being masala ventures. A CDI for example is more creditable than an OSO.
The departed/Spidey 3 example is the best one in this context. I think it would be absolutely meaningless to suggest that Spidey was liked more than the Departed.
Ravi 25 October 2007
07:24:01 am
Very well said Satyam(Sirji for Shettybhai) as always.
satyam 25 October 2007
07:26:17 am
On another note SRK has just said in an interview that the CDI kind of success had been missing in his career. Obviously he means that sort of commercial and critical success. Aamir in the meantime had Lagaan all those years ago, arguably DCH (which in this kind of multiplex age would have been a major grosser), certainly RDB. To a lesser extent there was a film like Sarfarosh earlier. Abhishek has already had a Guru. SRK has just done it. Again not all hits are equal.
satyam 25 October 2007
07:36:24 am
Finally Sunny, I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that I was conveniently ignoring your comment. I did not see this one, I have in any case been rather irregular here over the last week. At the same time I’ve written volumes on all of this stuff on this very blog and there’s only so much I can repeat myself. Still I have responded at length to you here. I didn’t respond to Beldevere above because after all those Hollywood/Bollywood examples I think the point I was trying to make was crystal clear.
satyam 25 October 2007
07:40:54 am
On SRK I would also say that he’s lagging behind in the buzz factor, has been for sometime now. A CDI was again an exception. OSO is a big film that everyone will see, it doesn’t have any real buzz to it. It’s not like a JA for example. Every year the examples change. A Guru, a RDB, a JA and so on but SRK rarely has the ‘buzz’ films. Saawariya had it with the first preview but I think it’s losing it a bit now. Still it’s been more than for OSO where Farah Khan by revealing every single thing about the film has really ruined any chance of real buzz.
Qalandar 25 October 2007
08:39:21 am
Elvis: Re: “Ofcourse size matters.”
Of course it does. It’s just that skill matters more…
rks 25 October 2007
09:31:31 am
Satyam:this requires separate post.
nithi_s 26 October 2007
12:03:10 am
I don’t have the patience to read some of Satyam’s atrocious statements…
Satyam,
“SRK losing steam” is something you like to believe. You belongs to the group of people who want to think that way.
Equating the trending of a film as to a star is not correct. I think everyone here has agreed Stardom is always related to the ‘Opening’ of a film and TRENDING is related to how well the movie connects with the audience or ultimately how well the movie is made.
Going by that logic, I wasn’t any SRK movie getting a really bad opening. He hasn’t starred in movies that have received extreme bad reactions from the people… even if KANK was hated with passion, there were people who found is ‘Okay’.
By that logic, its Amitabh whose movie got the worst possible response from critics and audience. Does that mean Amitbah is out and fading?
I don’t have any interest in Salman khan movies as I find him an uninteresting actor. Does that mean I can equate this personal lack of interest as the general buzz factor??? Can I read outdated BO results of all Salman movies and make a huge post to prove that Salman was never a star??? (And of course Salman has had sudden un Super Starish movies in between like Shaadi kar ke phass gaya etc …)
Its common sense that makes me realize that Salman has some kind of fanatic fans who love his mannerisms and coolness which I might never understand. The same with SRK. He has fans whether you realize it or not.
Its YOU who is not interested in OSO or CDI or Idiot or any SRK movie. The current status is that any SRK can generate plenty of interest than any Amitabh Bachchan movie.
If you don’t like SRK, fine with it. You have reasons to like other actors, fine. You can’t really predict who hasn’t the buzz and who has it because your vision dictated by your prejudices is flawed.
Similarly, you along with a few people in NG can give Abhishek the benenfit of doubt as you guys think his acting skills are decent. That doesn’t mean he has a buzz bigger than Hrithik Roshan or Salman or SRK or Akshay. All you can do is to HOPE.
Three big budgetted movies (buzz worthy) of SRK haven’t materialized, which is why he is currently joblessly. You read it as SRK not being buzz worthy which is why these did not materialize!!! Man, this is a proof that your way of thinking is pretty strange.
nithi_s 26 October 2007
12:22:10 am
I don’t have the patience to read some of Satyam’s atrocious statements…
Satyam,
“SRK losing steam” is something you like to believe. You belongs to the group of people who want to think that way.
Equating the trending of a film as to a star is not correct. I think everyone here has agreed Stardom is always related to the ‘Opening’ of a film and TRENDING is related to how well the movie connects with the audience or ultimately how well the movie is made.
If you really read the trending, there hasn’t been any SRK movie getting a really bad opening. He hasn’t starred in movies that have received extreme bad reactions from the people… even if KANK was hated with passion, there were people who found is ‘Okay’.
By that logic, its Amitabh whose recent movie got the worst possible response from critics and audience. Does that mean Amitabh is out and fading? Sense, says that Amitabh can re-generate the buzz with just one interesting promo of another movie.
It is the same with SRK. According to the audience, there are things that SRK does best, which is why he is called Super Star. As long as the people like that Something from SRK, he will be a Super Star.
That something is the buzz. Its very, very weak in guys like Abhishek or Ajay Devgan … though these guys are often rated as good actors.
You who know which actor has which movie, So you can say that Abhishek has promising lineup. Do the real audience see it? They see only the promos and make a quick decision if this is gonna have some entertainment value or not. Its really not up to us to decide.
Amitabh had an Aag right after Cheeni Kum. SRK had a Swades right after MHN. The slightly lower response from audience for both Swades and Aag are not related to the ‘lack of buzz’ of these stars but the lack of buzz in the entire movie.
I don’t have any interest in Salman khan movies as I find him an uninteresting actor. Does that mean I can equate this personal lack of interest as the general buzz factor??? Can I read outdated BO results of all Salman movies and make a huge post to prove that Salman was never a star??? (And of course Salman has had sudden un Super Starish movies in between like Shaadi kar ke phass gaya etc …)
Its common sense that makes me realize that Salman has some kind of fanatic fans who love his mannerisms and coolness which I might never understand. The same with SRK. He has fans whether you realize it or not.
Its YOU who is not interested in OSO or CDI or Idiot or any SRK movie. The current status is that any SRK can generate plenty of interest than any Amitabh Bachchan movie.
If you don’t like SRK, fine with it. You have reasons to like other actors, fine. You can’t really predict who hasn’t the buzz and who has it because your vision dictated by your prejudices is flawed.
Similarly, you along with a few people in NG can give Abhishek the benenfit of doubt as you guys think his acting skills are decent. That doesn’t mean he has a buzz bigger than Hrithik Roshan or Salman or SRK or Akshay. All you can do is to HOPE.
Three big budgetted movies (buzz worthy) of SRK haven’t materialized, which is why he is currently joblessly. You read it as SRK not being buzz worthy which is why these did not materialize!!! Man, this is a proof that your way of thinking is pretty strange.
nithi_s 26 October 2007
01:39:56 am
I don’t need BO results as proof for simple statements like Amitabh is a bigger star than Anil Kapoor. But, you if you really see BO results, they can confuse you. Cause, Anil has been a part of buzz worthy, successful movies of late 80’s. Flawed conclusions can be made. Satyam’s arguments are always fuelled by these kind of conclusions. I find them exasperating.
They are guys in NG who seem to find SRK hammy, gayish, equate him to a mosquito and what not… I understand that point of view. I have hated SRK is many movies and so I know what they are talking about. But Satyam’s reasoning always leaves me puzzled. Its a twisted way to reach a ridiculous conclusion.
I don’t know about the supposed knowledge he has. I don’t know many things about this site. I am new here. Yet, I find that some kind of background pats seem to be happening between some members of this site. And I can clearly see Satyam getting benefitted by this background works. Som is someone I used to chat in SB. Now he seems influenced by Satyam. And some people always try to protect Satyam no matter what. This is annoying.
At the cost of sounding rude and completely against one senior most and respected member, I wish, some more people read Satyam’s arguments clearly and try to present a counter view or supporting argument, like the way its usually in NG. This is no place for male bonding, dirty jokes, personal equations and sentiments.
Tango 26 October 2007
02:02:42 am
Welcome to the party nithi_s.
You, Beldevere and Sunny have bought a new angle to NG.
See one only debate when the reason given are rational. When the sources etc. become doubtful for one argument and respectful for another argument its no use. At time some one year old, small time source becomes the biggest evidence to prove a point.
At another instance people/sites who are into the thick and things for years and are quoted ( and published in the news papers next day, both Hindi and vernacular) of things are discredited with a casual “biased”, but quoted to prove something !
Its a worthless endeavour, and to convince a handful of people or a coterie, sorry I have better things to do and many out there to serve.
Hope you get my point. In a nutshell, it is not my evening biscuit with tea to argue. Nor is it my passion to win an argument as it does not give me ahigh.
As my friend Joginder told me, better ‘to write an article and put your time to more fruitful purposes.
Tango 26 October 2007
02:05:31 am
Sorry for some grammatical mistakes and key in errors. Hope you get a gist of what I am trying to say.
nithi_s 26 October 2007
03:51:58 am
Thanks Tango. Proves that sanity prevails.
I was expecting insults from the pro-Satyam gang. There have been snidey remarks like ‘Some new members in NG do not understand the dynamics of this site’ etc …
If thats what is true, pray explain what the dynamics of this site is. And please simplify Satyam’s comments so that illiterate person like me can understand what it is all about???
Tango 26 October 2007
07:10:04 am
nithi_s
First of all, let me pat my own back because I am on best of terms with many members who do not like the stars that I like and have other favourites.
See the difference is ( as I have said time and again) giving space to the other person.
Talking about the SRK & Abhishek camp
Please see the difference, when Guru released, the debate centred mostly on whether the opening day was good or not. N sources said that no it was not but picked up beautifully from the evening show itself, but it ran on and on for topics and topics that Guru had a cracker of an opening and EVERY source is lying. The second contention was week being 18 or 20 cr and went on and on till Taran came out with 18.
NEVER ONCE DID ANYONE( from the opposite camp) SAY THAT GURU IS FLOPPING OR IS NOT HIT. The debate was about how big or small
Now, the difference is that whenever an SRK or Akshay movie releases , attempt is to prove that it is going to lose flop or will be average. This has been on from the days of Devdas and Awara Pagal Deewana and across forums.
As you must have seen ( leave the 47-50 cr earners) attempts are on to blow holes in CDI’s 64.5 crore nett total and we can see n attempts to give the credit to everyone else apart from SRK. That is bull-headed approach and not giving space to the other.
rks 26 October 2007
09:50:52 am
Nithi: Please refrain from personal comments.
This is OK but this is more personal.
Tango 26 October 2007
10:08:44 am
rks- Shabash Mere Sher (as Amir said to Salman in Andaaz Apna Apna)
Anyway, ummeed karta hoom tum bhabbi ji ke saath karwachauth ka vrat rakhoge, do din baat.
I am quite sure Nithi_s being a new member ( and not very well convesant with the system here)will take your suggestion in the right.
Tango 26 October 2007
10:12:08 am
.. spirit
I am also quite sure you will act as neutral as i believe you will and make NG ( already a good place)a better place.
rks 26 October 2007
10:17:01 am
Tango:”ummeed karta hoom tum bhabbi ji ke saath karwachauth ka vrat rakhoge, do din baat.”
All the Husbands (of our apartment comunity – total 5-6) have been assigned to cook for ladies. And It seems I am the best of the lot. So on Monday I would be in kitchen making food for 5-6 ladies
.
Elvis 26 October 2007
10:35:17 am
Re:This is no place for male bonding, dirty jokes, personal equations and sentiments.
Hmmm.Might have to withdraw from the NG community.I guess this is a place to come and cook and do laundry!
On a serious note,Nithi why dont you try to respond to Satyam in a similar vein- cogent,persusasive arguments laced with verifiable facts and logic? And same goes for the rest too.Instead of trying to criticise his approach,if you dont agree put up a counterpoint.BTW,Satyam never indulges in dirty jokes etc.
rks 26 October 2007
10:55:03 am
Elvis:”I guess this is a place to come and cook and do laundry!”
This was not needed.
Lets keep the post restricted to “movies and stars”.
Tango 26 October 2007
11:11:47 am
rks- Keep the Rajshri tradition of good husbands
“All the Husbands (of our apartment comunity – total 5-6) have been assigned to cook for ladies. And It seems I am the best of the lot. So on Monday I would be in kitchen making food for 5-6 ladies.”
Arre you are are going to demonstrate ur box-office pull in a women stronghold/circuit , kitchen
I also cook and am quite agood cook, thought I cannot make ‘roti/Chapati’
Udhar chalni /sieve etc. milti hai chand dekhno ko ya idhar se courier karoon
rks 26 October 2007
11:16:39 am
Tango:”Udhar chalni /sieve etc. milti hai chand dekhno ko ya idhar se courier karoon ”
Miltaa hai..Par hamari Madam India se lekar aayi hain.. Am I a good husband? is subjective area and my wife delves in that time to time
. Roti humen bhi nahi banani aati hai.
Tango 26 October 2007
11:19:09 am
We must have all seen the ‘karwachauth’ fasting in films.
It will be nice to find and put a link here ( all are movie fans here I presume) about ‘karwachauth’ ( most may be knowing but for those who may not), so that there is a’karwacahuth’ scene in a Bollywod movie ppl can understand it better.
Some movies that had ‘karwachauth’ ( recently) were ‘Biwi No. 1′ and also ‘Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam’ and ‘Hum Saath Saath Hain’.
rks 26 October 2007
11:24:57 am
Karwa Chauth
Tango 26 October 2007
11:37:26 am
Great link mate. It has a few new info for me.
I knew abt the Rani Veerawati part but that Mahabharata and Draupadi angle is new for me.
I am obsessed about getting knowledge regarding traditions and prevailing in the society.
beldevere 26 October 2007
12:20:57 pm
Cogent persuasive arguments eh Elvis. Most of it has been proven wrong. But its the you way you choose to see it. There have been enough counterpoints to point the fallacy in satyam’s logic. But as they say you believe only what you want to believe.
shetty 26 October 2007
06:18:30 pm
“Some movies that had ‘karwachauth’ ( recently) were ‘Biwi No. 1′ and also ‘Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam’ and ‘Hum Saath Saath Hain’.”
Karwachauth + Salman khan = Super hit
Tango 27 October 2007
01:21:13 pm
rks- You are doing a superb job.
Don’t hesitate to warn anyone including yours truly if there is something that breaks the code of conduct on my/my our part.
And don’t be perturbed by all the E-mails against you.
Obviously there will be attempts to maintain their hegeomny at NG by some of us/some of my NG friends.
Tango 27 October 2007
01:28:55 pm
**there will be attempts to maintain their/our hegemony at NG by some of us/some of my NG friends.**
But that will only be a temporary phase.
rks 27 October 2007
02:04:34 pm
Tango:”You are doing a superb job. ”
I get easily embarrassed by praise. I think actual compliment would be if people respect you and listen to you when you ask them to.
Tango 27 October 2007
10:12:08 pm
No its not praise rks- Jab mujhe lagega that you are not I will say that too.
You will get full co-operation from me.
(Haan waqt padega to ladai bhi hogi tumse:!: )
nithi_s 28 October 2007
11:15:40 pm
Elvis,
I wasn’t referring to Satyam when I said about “dirty jokes”. I think I have already presented persuasive argument.
- Nithya
abzee 29 October 2007
12:28:15 am
Nithi- Please…you need to take a chill pill. Why do you always seem so angry? God knows we’ve had ugly spats at NG, but we all get along fine despite all. As for the dirty jokes and the raunchy conversations, we all need a li’l fun at times. And even Freud’s said that it’s all about sex and violins(!), didn’t he?
nithi_s 29 October 2007
12:42:40 am
abzee,
I just posted what I thought. Its up NG members, Rohit and rks to decide what to do. All I asked is to have a little control. As many here have accepted limits were crossed on that post.
I am sorry about any personal attacks on Satyam.
Tango 29 October 2007
12:51:11 am
Thanks nithi_s for your views.
I am with you on “All I asked is to have a little control”
Also if you deem it fit plz congratultae rks on his choice as a mod.
rks 29 October 2007
12:56:14 am
Nithi: I think you (anybody) are fine posting anything you like except for any personal comments.
Sunny 29 October 2007
02:46:38 am
Elvis: I think Beldevere gave you a more than apt reply…it has been done by many on many occassions…you just choose not to ’see’ it.
Hi again Satyam
Ok, some quick!? points from me again–
1) “The Bachchan/SRK analogy is the wrong one to begin with. This is the principle error that is often made over here. SRK was always light years away from Bachchan in terms of box office magnitude. Leaving aside a direct comparison SRK never established that kind of gap with his competitors. This has precisely been my point forever. Leaving aside Yashraj/Dharma SRK’s record is mediocre and even less than this through the 90s.”
The gap with competitors is simply because we didn’t have an Aamir,a Salman,a Hritik,an Akshay,a Sunny,a Saif,an Abhishek,a Sanjay..(heck! even Suniel became big for a couple of years) in the 70s and early-mid 80s. One can even make a case for SRK’s achievement being the more commendable one….but I’m not the one certainly
2) IN the second point…your first and second paras are contradicting each other, and it’s futile to point out why. “With SRK it’s very different”–why? beacuse you say so..? Please understand that “Anil Kapoor was good for a few years and then wilted” is NO credit to Bachhan and that Aamir,Salman,Akshay,Hritik refuse to be wilted is NO discredit to SRK.
” Aakhree Raasta in ‘86 made as much as Karma though by Bachchan standards the former didn’t seem extraordinary”
Akhree Raasta made 4 Cr while Karma made 6 Cr in ‘86..that’s 50%! more , it surely isn’t ‘as much’ much…or is it? And if it really is then why is Don labelled ’scraping’ by you and many here when in fact it made almost ‘as much’ money as RDB….?
Now I don’t have so much patience to counter every point you’ve made…I will in good time though. But I’ll counter just one more thing–
“And of course when Bachchan was SRK’s age it was the early 80s and he was the ‘one man industry’! When Bachchan started slowing down he 4-5 years older than SRK is today and SRK has been having problems for at least a couple of years.”
First of all, it’s not a crime to have been ‘younger’ during your professional prime..is it?
Secondly, let’s just analyse this same age theory(and the ‘outgrossing competition’ bit too) a li’l bit. Bacchan was SRK’s age(now) in ‘83(AB’s DOB being Oct 11,1942).
Biggest Grossers
‘80– Quarbani
‘81–Kranti(Naseeb was the 2nd)
‘82–Vidhaata(Namak Halaal was the 2nd)
‘83–Coolie
‘84–Tohfa(Sharaabi was the 2nd)
‘85–Raam Teri Ganga Maili(Mard was the 2nd)
‘86–Karma
Vs.
‘01-K3G
‘02-Devdas
‘03-Koil Mil Gaya(KHNH was the 2nd)
‘04-Veer Zaara(MHN was the 2nd)
‘05–No Entry
‘06–Dhoom 2
‘07–CDI(OSO might be the 2nd or even do more)
Now SRK is at CDI with an upcoming OSO where Bachhan was at Coolie(giving the year’s biggest grosser) at the same age..right? Do you really see that much of a difference given the fact the load of crap films and the minimal percentage of hits the 80s had..? Do you really think SRK won’t have hits as AB had post ‘83..? Probably you do
Having had FOUR year’s biggest grossers,three second biggest grossers,making a hit out of a rejected movie(KANK), getting an average film like Don to gross almost as much as a loved film like RDB, critically acclaimed performances in Swades and now CDI,..all of this is somehow questionable from every angle..?
Again, everything that I have said here is not to compare him to AB. He’s not there yet..no.. not yet. And I honestly believe no one can reach the high of where AB was during mid seventies to early eighties, but!…what’s due is due, and what’s fair is fair…and clearly what you’ve been trying to say here Satyam sir..is unfair. But….you’ll have it your way anyway
..and ‘I will be right here waiting for you’ ta ra ra ra(courtesy Richard Marx)
Sunny 29 October 2007
02:54:57 am
Oh! and well done for making Guru as big a hit as CDI,laced with verifiable!? evidence and persuasive arguments of course ….I hope this makes Elvis happy
Sunny 29 October 2007
02:59:18 am
Sataym–As for the ‘buzz’ factor, I think Sandy mentioned this sometime earlier in a thread. You really have to ‘live’ in India to know what buzz which film creates..and yes, I do remember your reply to Sandy’s comment too, so there’s no need to go the Pune,Suburban NY etc. route again
Sunny 29 October 2007
03:07:09 am
“As you must have seen ( leave the 47-50 cr earners) attempts are on to blow holes in CDI’s 64.5 crore nett total and we can see n attempts to give the credit to everyone else apart from SRK. That is bull-headed approach and not giving space to the other”
Aptly put Tango bhai.
Sunny 29 October 2007
03:09:01 am
BTW…aaj mera bhi vrat hai..so please go easy on me
…lol
rockstar the dumb 29 October 2007
03:49:28 am
“SRK was always light years away from Bachchan in terms of box office magnitude” thats why he films were sold for astronomical price and back in 80s he was the one who started taking a crore for a movie ,somebody put the grossers list bachchan for some time in 80s was in politics
rockstar the dumb 29 October 2007
03:58:52 am
“The gap with competitors is simply because we didn’t have an Aamir,a Salman,a Hritik,an Akshay,a Sunny,a Saif,an Abhishek,a Sanjay” well that is the criteria for measuring stardom what ur opponets are doing.
Sunny 29 October 2007
04:04:19 am
rockstar–not sure what u’re trying to say with your last comment.
rockstar the dumb 29 October 2007
04:12:45 am
dude during bachchan era even his flops were some of the biggest grossers for the year u mentioned about the todays time and number of star its true we are heading into hollywood culture with multiple superstars with better packaging and script good script will be surely be liked by multiplex audiences(now part of bigger revenue) its hardly anything to be comparable to bachchans stardom when bachchan there was rajesh khanna,dharmendra,vinod khanna,rishi kapoor but they were way short compared to bachchs staure in box office
rockstar the dumb 29 October 2007
04:14:03 am
dude during bachchan era even his flops were some of the biggest grossers for the year u mentioned about the todays time and number of star its true we are heading into hollywood culture with multiple superstars with better packaging and script good script will be surely be liked by multiplex audiences(now part of bigger revenue) its hardly anything to be comparable to bachchans stardom when bachchan there were rajesh khanna,dharmendra,vinod khanna,rishi kapoor to but they were way short compared to bachchans staure in box office
rockstar the dumb 29 October 2007
04:19:07 am
other stars in 80s got up and got the benifits mostly due to bachchan’s stint in politics when he started to cut down his assignment
Sunny 29 October 2007
04:34:37 am
Dude rickstar…I’m not trying to belittle Bachhan’s achievements.Clearly, you haven’t read my last paragraph yet. But just for argument’s sake
…Dharmendra and Rajesh khanna were pretty senior to Bachhan and were actually past their prime when Bachhan was ruling. And Dharmendra’s BO acievements certainly aren’t ‘way short’ of Bachhan’s. As for Rishi and Vinod….as I said earlier..their BO effectiveness vis a vis Bachhan is not the same as Aamir,Salman,Hritik,Akshay,Govinda,Sunny,Sanjay,Saif,Abhishek’s BO effectiveness vis a vis SRK…or is it? Not to mention the multipplex boom and how even films like Metro and Bheja fry are finding an audience.Heck!, even Bachhan is still alive n kicking and doing quite well. Isn’t all of this even a little! pat worthy for SRK?
Again, just trying to put a little perspective which seems to be lacking.. not trying to make SRK the superstar of the millennium at all. As I’ve said at all times, he’s not there yet.
Sunny 29 October 2007
04:35:25 am
sorry for the typo *rickstar*=rockstar
rockstar the dumb 29 October 2007
04:44:00 am
“Heck!, even Bachhan is still alive n kicking and doing quite well. Isn’t all of this even a little! pat worthy for SRK?” dude i know srk made a big impact in overseas revenue but never knew bachchan was alive and acting because of him he was the first to get into t.v(took a big risk which s.r.k later adopted),aside multiplex boom has lot do with cooperates jumping into market(eros,pvretc got there revenues from a.i.m not s.rk), he just contributed in opening up overseas market
sandy 29 October 2007
05:03:19 am
“Elvis:”I guess this is a place to come and cook and do laundry!”
This was not needed.
Lets keep the post restricted to “movies and stars”.
rks: What sort of kindergarten moderation is this? There’s nothing wrong with that
sort of humour. Don’t want to see NG turning into a drab, boring place, where everyone has to be strictly polite, with no place for even puns and sarcasm.
In my opinion, a moderator must step in only when it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. His role is mostly that of a passive observer.
Sash 29 October 2007
05:46:39 am
Rks: You don;t need to stand there waiting to crack the whip’just chill. And if we dont encourage members to speak up…. NG will lose its sense of exclusivity. Also a moderator must absolutely have a sense of humour!!
rks 29 October 2007
08:24:22 am
Sandy and Sash: Thank you, I get your point and agree to it.
ps: context Link1 , Link2
Sunny 29 October 2007
11:00:48 pm
Rockstar–”dude i know srk made a big impact in overseas revenue but never knew bachchan was alive and acting because of him he was the first to get into t.v(took a big risk which s.r.k later adopted),aside multiplex boom has lot do with cooperates jumping into market(eros,pvretc got there revenues from a.i.m not s.rk), he just contributed in opening up overseas market”…huh?
LOL..I’m completely at a loss of words now. It’s like I was speaking Hindi and you heard Sanskrit. Please read the whole comment again bhai
BTW..this looks to cross the 400 comment barrier any minute now
Sunny 29 October 2007
11:06:04 pm
jiju is being tamed…lol. Good work Sandhya.Sash
. BTW,rks, aapne kal vrat rakha ki nahi?
rks 30 October 2007
12:56:51 am
Sunny:Haan abhi fast thod kar aa rahen hain. Has been very busy day.
flora 9 November 2007
08:11:33 pm
i was the first one to comment and i also predicted that this will have many comments,so here comes the comment no 400.
and number 1 in NG
flora 16 November 2007
11:23:38 pm
one comment has gone missing so let me again make it 400
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